"At one point I was at the lowest of the low and I went to church. During church I just decided "OK I am going to have a reset, I am going to fight my way back." So right there I started cleaning up my social media, putting limits on my phone and getting my calendar updated, those types of things. Then after church my friend invited me to stake choir and I decided to give it a chance. We sat down and sang the song "Be Still My Soul" and that was the second time in my life I felt that burning in the bosom, just straight out of the scriptures. An undeniable feeling, I just remembered it again with the peace and the hope and the optimism, the passion. All of those emotions just came flooding, in what I believe to be the fruits of the spirit."
Transcript
Bridger
00:00
So, I was I was born into the church, born into the covenant. And actually, I've chatted about this in a few other podcasts, but my life starts out with somewhat of like a miracle. So I was, I was supposed to be like, my due date was somewhere around Halloween, give or take a few days. But my doctor, my mom's doctor had an impression to deliver me like three, four weeks early, and just a spiritual impression. And so, he followed he followed through on that, my parents trusted him and follow through on that. And when I was delivered, I had the cord around my neck, and there was a knot in it. So, it was both.
Ashly Stone
Oh my
Bridger
Yeah, right when, So I was near, I was dying as I came out. And I'm, I'm really lucky to be alive. So, because of that, I think for me, like God has always just been an option, right? He's never been off the table, or too much of a logical leap to believe in God. So, I've always just grown up in my life, believing in God. And believing that for some reason, that he decided to keep me here. And so yeah, I grew up in the church, I wasn't, I was never the most active member of the church. I would go just because my parents told me to, I'd fight going to church and whatnot. But I remember once I got to, once I got to ninth grade, I saw a video on Facebook. And this was right when the age change happened for the missionaries. And so, the local high school, the seminary, released a video of like, a bunch of missionaries opening up their mission calls. And it was like a montage video of missionaries who were in the high school as well as just who had graduated that last year. And just like him behind it type thing. And I was on the tennis team, and my sister was also like a junior in high school. So, I knew a lot of those people in the videos. And I just remember watching that video, and like seeing some of the people I knew and people I looked up to. And that was like, the very first time like, I can remember that, like the spirit truly touched me. Like, just watching them open up their calls and just got so excited. And I felt so much optimism. And it was Yeah, yeah, first time I ever really felt that burning in the bosom, you know, straight out of the scriptures. And that was the day I decided I was going to serve a mission. You know, however I got there, I didn't know. But I was like 100% determined to serve a mission after watching that video. But I'm sure like we have our own experiences, right? We go into high school; high school is a hot mess. I'm sure for a lot of people. And as I'm going to church, and I think it's important to recognize like I had great examples and Sunday school teachers, but I was kind of taught this narrative of and, you might even have been taught it, right? Like, General Conference equals scripture, or like, everything that Prophet says is 100% true. And like you don't question that you figure it out, like, you figure out why you're wrong and don't question their teachings type thing. Like so that was like, the version, the narrative of the church that I grew up with, and I grew up believing, right. So yeah, as I as I go into high school, I again, I wasn't I wasn't super active. And I remember I would like going through high school. I started out like on like a pretty good spiritual, spiritual plane. But over time, it's like, slowly over time, and you know, the Scripture, like Satan carefully carries you down to hell. Like, I believe that is so true. Because I've experienced it multiple times in my life. And that first time was like, starting out in high school, like overtime, just pushing friends away and getting into all this crap like video game addiction. And just pushing like, every yeah, everything that mattered away from me. And so, I go through high school, and I get to about halfway through my junior year and by this point, like, I've just like, consumed myself with just garbage stuff: video games, pornography, pushing people away from me. Yeah, just stuff like that. Just garbage stuff. And I remember I got to a point where I was like, pretty suicidal, very depressed, I didn't really feel like I had anywhere to go. And so, du ring, I went to church one Sunday, and during church I just decided I'm like, you know, I'm just going to have a reset. I don't know if you've ever experienced that where like, you're in like, lowest of the low at the lowest point and you're like, I just, I'm just gonna reset. I'm just gonna fight my way back. So, during church I decided that, so I started during I took a cleanup my social media setting, putting new habits on my phone, getting my calendar updated, all those types of things and during church. And I remember my friend after church invited me to like stake choir. And if you knew me during high school, I like to like make fun of choir. Like I was just, I was a jerk, right? And so, I just thought that was I just Yeah, never in a million years did I think I would ever go. But I, for some reason I decided to, I decided to give it a chance. And so, I remember going, and we sat down, and we sang the song “Be Still My Soul”. And that was the second time in my life, I felt that burning in the bosom, just straight out of the scriptures, an undeniable feeling. And I just remember again, with the peace and the hope and the optimism, the passion, all those just emotions just flooding, flooding, what I believe are fruits of the Spirit that come with it. And after that experience, after feeling the spirit, I decided, yeah, I wouldn't say my life changed overnight. But that was when I just started meeting with my bishop, getting better habits, getting friends back and getting social again. And so, I had some momentum. And I carried that with me. And eventually, you know, like, depression started to fade away. I beat you know, video game addictions and whatnot. And yeah, eventually, I got my mission call to California, Bakersfield. And I remember, I remember getting dropped off at the Provo MTC. Did you serve a mission?
Ashly Stone
No.
Bridger
So yeah, I remember, like, just that feeling of getting dropped off at the Provo MTC. And just like seeing everyone there, and how happy they were, you know, like you just pull up and everyone's smiling, they're waving. And again, for like, the third time of my life, I felt that really strong spirit, knowing that that was the direction I supposed to be going. So, I get to the Provo MTC and I start my mission. And I'm, as I'm sure you've heard, like, so much happens on mission I experienced like miracles that some that I would even say are like too sacred for me to share. Experienced crazy life-threatening situations, different people, cultures, perspectives. So many funny stories, I learned so much. But I like I began my mission, like I didn't even know that the Book of Mormon took place in America, or like the central met whatever I didn't even know the Boom of Mormon was in the Americas. So, I didn't know like anything about the church going into my mission. But what really, really impacted me on my mission, what like, was seeing like stake presidents or patriarchs, my mission president, bishops, missionaries in my mission and seeing like how good of people they were like how in tune they were with the spirit, how much knowledge they had. So, I remember very early on my mission, I decided, I’m like, that's what I want to be like when I get home or that's what I want to be like. I want to be as smart as them, I want to be as kind as them, I want to be as humble as them. And it was the examples of good people that really, really propelled me to be motivated to live a life in Gospel. And so yeah, and another impactful thing on my mission was learning like how, like, deep and expansive the gospel was, like, I loved just staying up at night, when we got home from proselyting and just talking about goofy things like Kolob you know, just like having those super fun discussions. I yeah, I saw, I realized how like, how big the gospel is and how fun it was. So, I Yeah, and so going throughout my mission, I'm spending, like, so much time, like learning about the gospel growing in the gospel. But it's important to highlight that as I'm doing this, I'm building that entire, like gospel theology into that narrative that I grew up with, you know, that like prophets are perfect, general conference equals scripture, you know, there's no flaws in the scriptures or anything like that. So, I'm building it all into that. And yeah, so I get home and I get home from my mission. And it is important to note too, that I realized by the end of my mission, that it wasn't the people that I wanted to become like, but it was the attributes of Christ that I saw in them. And that's a really important truth I learned by the end of my mission. Yeah, I got home I was laser focused. I still got up early every day read the scriptures for like an hour, exercising. Like I was just doing everything I needed to do. I found Yeah, I went on a date with a great girl, we ended up dating, later got married and everything was just, yeah. I was just cruising getting home from my mission. And yeah, I get and then like this getting married the sealing ceremony that was another point in my life where I really felt that like burning in the bosom, that really powerful spirit. But I remember after getting married and slowly like just slowly over time again like back to that scripture, like the devil leads you very carefully down to hell. I slowly started to like maybe like, stop saying nightly prayers and miss a night here and there or stop reading my scriptures.
10:00
Or maybe you miss the second hour of church. And it's just like month after month, slowly, slowly, slowly, those habits start to break until you like get to the point where you, you don't even you don't even like, don't even want to be an active member of the church eventually. And during this time, you know, we're getting into all these things like politics more, more so away from scriptures and into hobbies, and whatnot. And I start following like, we label them like progressive accounts in the church. People like, could be like Julie Hanks, or like the certain women account, My Heavenly Mother account, just like just what people would label as progressive accounts. I started following those accounts. And I started to realize, like, there's more than one way to be a member of the church, you know, like, I always thought it was like, my way or the highway. But I started to see like, there's actually logic and like, strong, there's a way that there's way more than one way to be a member of the church. And so I started to follow all these accounts and learning these new ideas. And yeah, and I remember like, yeah, so as I'm going through that, and like I mentioned, the examples of good people was one of the very most important things in building my testimony, starting out on a mission. And I would say, like, the first thing that like cracked my metaphorical shelf, you know, the shelf analogy. Yeah. So like, one of the first things that like, cracked my metaphorical, shelf, was just seeing that, like, people who were like in those positions, stake presidents, patriarchs, bishops, mission presidents, people who've been in those positions, like, seeing them not be, you know? What I saw as, like a good person would do, right? Seeing them care more about if somebody had a second piercing than if they were a good person, you know? Just really what I saw is really silly things like that, it really started to, that started to frustrate me. And that was like, the first thing that started to crack my shelf. Because, I couldn't understand like, how could our best, in some cases, you know, not develop, like kindness and charity. And so that was like, the first thing that that cracked my shelf. And then, over time, I eventually, like, I came across this post. I came across this post, and it was a collection of prophets and apostles and church history. And it was like, this was from one of like, the more progressive accounts I was following. And it was a collection of like, racist things they have taught. And this was during like, the peak of the Black Lives Matter movement, so that’s when this post came out. And I remember just like reading through that post, for the first time, and as someone who grew up with like, the idea of like, prophet equals scripture, like everything they say, is correct. Like, I just like, it was so hard for me to read. And I remember it was like, it was almost hard to breathe at certain points too while, I was reading it just because like, it was the first time in my life, I couldn't, you know, run around it or find a way to reconcile it. I just had to admit that I from you know, that they were wrong. And in me, I didn't think there was room in the truth claims for the prophets to be wrong, you know. And so, yeah, that was that was the first time that I had to realize that and so that's where, like, really my deconstruction, you know word, that’s where like that really started. And so, a few months later, a few months later, I kind of left that question unaddressed, you know, put it on the shelf type thing. And then a few months later, I download TikTok and again, probably a poor decision.
Ashly
13:48
It can be pretty gnarly
Bridger
13:51
Yeah, yeah, it's a crazy place. I downloaded TikTok and if you're on TikTok in Utah, you know how it is. You start scrolling you're gonna get an LDS discussions video or Mormon Stories podcast highlight or whatever, all the all the stuff on TikTok, just a crazy, crazy place. And so, I yeah, it really frustrated me at first, but I was still like deconstructing during this time. So, I just started, I was like, you know what, after watching a couple of the videos, I'm like, you know, I'm just going to figure out if this is true or not. Like, I'm going to just get rid of all my past experiences and all that and I'm just going to see if this is true, because I've never given it a chance if it's true or not, I've always just assumed it was. And so, I just started like, following every hashtag ex Mormon creator, I could, you know, and just, and I would just scroll on for hours at night, I would just scroll and watch videos, and I'm talking about like, this historical thing or this, this doctrine that they didn't like. And I would just watch for hours and hours for months on end. Just one of my biggest hobbies and just slowly over time, like, you know, like metaphorical shelf, I'm just putting more and more things. Why did Joseph say this? Or why is this in the Book of Mormon? Or what about this thing in the Bible? And I'm just putting more and more things on this metaphorical shelf. That I just yeah, questions I didn't have answers to because I didn't take the time to like research the opposite side. And so, the shelf is getting heavier and heavier and heavier.
Ashly
15:21
What did you feel like at this time? Like, you're being exposed to all this stuff? What was your feeling like your just innermost self? What were you feeling?
Bridger
15:32
Um, it's hard to say I was feeling I was going between, like, a lot of fear. Because I was like, I don't know how to imagine like, the rest of my life without the church. You know? Like, I never realized that was a possibility until going through this time. So, I started to think like, like, could I leave the church and my wife stay? Like, what would that look like? Like, those questions started going through my mind, you know, a little bit of panicky questions, and then I would like push them to the back, and I'll figure it out later. But I would definitely say it was a lot of fear and uncertainty during this, like, initial like deconstruction time.
Ashly
16:11
And also, what was your wife thinking? Like? Did you were you open with her about what you were seeing? What was her status at this time?
Ashly
16:19
Yeah, so I told her I was like, questioning, but I didn't tell her the full extent of like, my questioning. So, she, and I don't think she really wanted to talk about it, either. Because the possibility of having her husband leave the church was probably like a nightmare, right? I don't think anyone who is a believing member wants that experience. So, we didn't talk about it often. But she did know that I was questioning and it was really scary for her as well. But yeah, it was a lot of like, because I didn't want to like break her heart, you know, and tell her like my full extent of like, my frustrations and questions with the church. So, I kind of kept a lot of it internal.
Ashly
17:00
Yeah. Okay. Lead us to the next what happened after that?
Bridger
17:09
So, yeah, trying to remember exactly where I was. So, I'm following all these ex-Mormon creators scrolling through and watching their videos. And month after month, like more and more things get added to this shelf. And eventually, I get to the point where I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna rip the band aid off. I'm going to figure out if this is true, or not, like, let's just let's just see. And I noticed everyone was talking about the CES Letter. So, I was like, alright, well that’s what I'm gonna do. Let's see what see what it's got. So, I read the CES Letter, read it in a couple hours. And I remember like, the very first sentence, I was like, Holy crap, this is not true. Like, I get in, I'm not even 1% in the CES Letter. And I'm like, it's just like, this is just not true. Like, it's all made, like it. I don't even know like the words to describe it. But it felt like it was like a no brainer. Like, it's just, there's no, it's not true. I don't know how anyone has like, how anyone still believes this. It's the silliest thing. And like, as I'm reading it, I'm going through like, the strangest emotions, like, I'm getting really, really angry. You know, like, I've spent my whole life, I've served a mission, like, I could have done so many other things. Where would my life be if it wasn't a member of the church? Like, I really devoted all this time to distinguish it’s just not true? You know? So, there's like, so much anger. But there's so much like sadness as I'm doing this. Because then I started thinking about my wife, and how much she believes and I'm thinking about, you know, like, I really loved things in the Gospel, and I love talking about, like, the deeper ideas and like it was, you know, there's like this, really, and then there's like this optimism, you know? I'm like, I'm going to drive to the store and go get some alcohol, you know? I'm gonna go find some weed and start smoking weed. Like, I would, there's an optimism where I'm like, I'm kind of excited for all this crazy stuff. I can go start doing you know, so I'm going through like, a mixture of like, these three different emotions as I'm reading the CES Letter, and like, they're switching back and forth. And I yeah. And so, I finish it, and like, there was I like, the I don't really know, like, where exactly, I would say like, the shelf crashed, right? But it was like, I did not, it was like, not even a possibility that the church was true for me as I finish the CES letter. And so, I go there, I'm there for like, a couple of weeks, and I have no idea how to, like, tell my wife or how to tell, you know, like, I don't know, who to tell that I like I didn't really want to be a member anymore. I didn't believe and so I remember I go into church just because, you know, my, she was able to drag me to church. And I'm sitting there in church, and then I don't even know what prompted it or what, you know, what pushed it. But I remember sitting there and just feeling like that same feeling. I felt so many other times in my life, you know, that burning in the bosom? And I as I'm like, I'm feeling it and I'm just like, like, why? You know, like, Why? Why? Yeah, I thought it wasn't true. And so, as I'm feeling it, I start, I start thinking about how much I love the church and how much I love the gospel. And so, I'm like, I'm just gonna give this a chance. Like I read, I've studied for months and months and so many things from the opposing side, like, let me see, you know, what, Fair Mormon or Book of Mormon Central or some of these other like more apologetic resources, what do they have to say? What are their kind of arguments? And so, it took me a while, like, it was a lot of weeks, or, yeah, it was a while of just like, studying Fair Mormon CES Letter, like all on like, on different screens on my monitor, and like trying to figure things out. And it was frustrating, because like, I didn't feel like anyone had simple answers. It was like 20 different answers to like, why is there KJV in the book of Mormon? And I'm like, I just need one answer, I don't need 20. It's overwhelming. It was. So it was really frustrating trying to navigate that. But I remember, I got to a certain point, and Fair Mormons CES Letter reply. And it was and have you read the CES Letter?
Ashly Stone
No, I haven’t. I know,
Bridger
You're not, you're not missing out, it's fine.
Ashly Stone
21:07
Yeah, I've heard you know, well I actually I knew about it. The first time I heard about it was because at work, somebody in my office was leaving because of that. And my brother kind of gave me the high-level overview of what it was. And you know, it's interesting, because at that time, I was like, what could it possibly say, to make all these people leave? Like, what? What could be what could be in there? And, and since starting this podcast, I've heard enough of what is in there that like, I don't need to read it. Not that I even want to read it really. But all of the question of like, what could it be because I've only heard like, your side, like people who have read it, and then their experience of coming back. And it's actually been really incredible for me to be able to know what's in there. And then, but like, I don't have to experience it for myself, because I've heard everybody on my podcast experience of like, coming back afterwards. So, I've heard of all of the bogus, you know, things that come along with the CES Letter. So anyway, go on.
Bridger
22:20
Yeah, so I want to get it pulled up. So, the CES Letter does, it quotes the first book of Napoleon, which was written before the Book of Mormon. I don't know if that'll, I don't know if that'll show it. But you can kind of read it there, how it like shows that are like, there's the Book of Mormon, or there's the first book of Napoleon and then there's the Book of Mormon and how like, they're like, exactly the same, right? He's quoting them and then there's like these little dot dot dots between that. And I remember I got to like Fair Mormons reply and I saw that like, those little ellipsis where they're quoting, like, condemn not the writing, blank, blank, blank, the first book of Napoleon, blank, blank, blank the land of Jerusalem, right? And how it looks like they're like, these books are really similar. And I get to Fair Mormons reply, and they blow up, like, where those quotes are pulled from and its across, like 20 pages, like chapters between these little ellipses. And I remember as I'm like, looking at that photo, because that was one of the things in the CES letter, I'm like, oh, yeah, Joseph just copied, like, easy, simple, you know, like, and, as I'm looking at that, I just like, I started to get so angry, like, some of, like one of the angriest I've ever felt in my life. Because that was like, like, because it's like the entire CES Letter, it goes through and it's like as it’s making, Jeremy the author is like making his claims he's like, and the church lied about this, or the church misled us about this, or didn't provide the full context here. And so, and yeah, that's a huge theme in the CES Letter is the church lied to you. And as I'm reading that, and I'm like, you did the exact same freaking thing. As I'm looking at, like it made and it just made me so mad. That, you know, the exact same thing that he used to, like, destroy my testimony and say the church was guilty of, he was guilty of in the exact same. Just so hypocritical. And, and so like, after that, like anger is one of the biggest motivators and sometimes in life and it just like it fueled me. Like, I just started studying church history, like a maniac. Like, I'm talking like 100 120 hours a week of just like, laser focus for about a month of just like, just laser focus from the fire hose church history. Like, reading everything I could get my hands on. Listening to YouTube videos, podcasts, books, reading BYU studies, interpret articles, everything I could get my hands on, on church history. I remember during this process, you know, like we have my shelf and like once I got angry like I like out of spite I like rebuilt my shelf backup, you know? Like, I was like, I'm gonna, like I, yeah. So, like my shelves back up. And then as I'm like learning new things, I'm finding answers to questions and like I'm taking them, you know, week after week, study article after article, video after video. I'm like slowly taking things off the shelf. And while I'm doing that, I'm also putting things on. I like to call this like, my “secular ex Mormon shelf”, you know? Like, how did Joseph guess this right? Or why is this in the Book of Mormon? Like, why is this literary structure in the Book of Mormon type thing, you know? And I'm putting things on the shelf and so like, I'm taking things off this one and putting it on that one. And I remember I got to the point where I got to the point where there was like, I realized there was, you know, after like, hundreds of hours of studying, I realize there was no way for me to prove it one way or the other. Because that was like my goal going in, I just wanted to prove it right or wrong. And I realized that it's just not possible to prove it one way or the other. And I realized that there's just as much evidence the church is true, as there is that it's not. And so, I got to choose what I wanted to believe. And once I comprehended this, I remembered like how much I love the gospel, and how much I love learning and talking about it. And I thought about the rest of my life, and I imagined it with and without the gospel. And I thought about my wife and how much she believes. And I thought about like doctrines like eternal marriage and progression, and how much I wanted that to be true. And I then realized, for me personally, that I'd rather take the risk of being wrong about staying in the church, then right about leaving it. Because if it's not true, then my family and I live our life trying to be good people, value and help our community, strive to be healthy and educated, donate to charities, receive uplifting messages weekly, value counsel from much older and wiser people, cherish our family history, manifest our dreams and goals through prayer, have hope in the future, a sense of identity and purpose, focus on self-reliance, emergency preparedness, and gain many lifelong friendships. I thought, sure I'll be 10% less wealthy, I'll choose not to drink coffee, I won't shop on Sunday, won't drink alcohol, and I might get annoyed by what someone says in church every now and again. But the benefits I highlighted before just simply outweigh those things for me. Especially when I took into account the very realistic and logical possibility that the church is true. Because if it is true, then my family could progress eternally together. If it is true then there's a loving and powerful, loving and powerful God in heaven, who is my Father and I’m made in His image. If it is true then death is not the end and our life on earth has divine purpose. If it is true, then improving, improving and bettering myself has an eternal benefit. I thought if it is true that all those who have died unjustly or without opportunity are going to have opportunities to grow, have an opportunity for to learn truth and grow for redemption. And if it is true then evil people you know, like murderers and human traffickers, thieves, children and animal abusers and all other like evil people, that they'll actually face judgment, judgment and damnation. So, for me, at the end of the day, like my faith crisis, it all just came down to a decision. And only a decision because of the very realistic and logical possibility that the church is true. There was and is enough evidence on both sides for me to choose what I wanted to believe. And so like, I kind of put it into like, perspective, like, for me, the choice was easy. You know, when it came to choosing to believing in like, do I want to believe that I'm a mutated ape or a child of God? The decision was easy. When it came to choosing to believe in eternal progression with my family, or eternal darkness and nothingness, the decision was easy. When the decision came to choosing to believe that I'll be able to meet my ancestors and loved ones who passed, including my brother in the next life, or that they're just gone forever, the decision was easy. When the decision came to choosing to believing in miracles, angels, visions for a world without the magic of the Gospel, the decision was easy. And when the decision came to the living, when living a happy and fulfilling life in the church with my wife, or just leaving her in the church alone, the decision was easy. And finally, for me, it came to believing when the decision came to believing in everything, the plan of salvation, or believing in nothing, just random chance, the decision was these easy. So, my faith crisis ended when I made and I'm still making the decision to believe. I choose to believe not because I feel forced to or not because I'm brainwashed, but because I want to and I believe as I've been making this choice, God has been coming consecrating it. For me, like when we talked about miracles earlier, right. For me, those miracles and spiritual experiences started to come after I made my decision to believe. Those confirmations, those memories, those fruits of the Spirit, came after I made the decision to believe. And I believe that's what God, does he consecrates our decisions after we make them. And so, ultimately, I choose to believe because there's enough evidence to do so. And for me, I think it's a better choice. Yeah, that's just Yeah, that's a little bit of.
Ashly Stone
30:42
That is so good. I gotta read you this quote. It just totally, it totally goes. I posted it on my Instagram story, and it's from The Crucible of Doubt. Have you read that yet?
Bridger
I have not, no.
Ashly Stone
You gotta read it, you would love it. But the quote is, okay, “There is a type of flower that can only bloom in the desert of doubt. Faith that we elect to profess, in the absence of certainty is an offering that is entirely free, unconditioned and utterly authentic. Such a gesture represents our considered and chosen response to the universe, our assent to what we find beautiful and worthy and deserving of our risk.” I feel like that it is such a just perfectly embodies what you just said. And I think it's so true. I think that it's interesting how those questions that we have can lead to a strengthened testimony and can lead to something really incredible and profound, and yeah. I just I really love that. That is, that's amazing. Okay, so now you're back in the church, you're, you know, you've got your testimony. Do you feel like your testimony is now stronger on the other side?
Bridger
32:15
Then it was before my faith crisis?
Ashly Stone
Yeah.
Bridger
In some ways, yes and some ways, no. Yes, in its more secure. Because it's informed and informed faith is fortified faith. So, I believe it's more fortified. But like, I would lie if saying, like, it was really nice when things were simple, you know? When everything made sense, and it was right and didn't have many questions, like every, you know, it was, it was a lot, a lot easier. And I think that's just part of the burden of having a more informed, what I would what I, I feel is more mature faith, is it's not nearly as easy, it takes a lot more work. And so like, and sometimes I get caught up in caring about, you know, making so much use out of the logic, I forget about the spirit, you know. And having that spiritual conversion. But now yeah, I would say it's like, more fortified now.
Ashly Stone
33:08
Yeah, in the Faith Is Not Blind book, they talk about how, you know, we have a when we're young, we have a simple, simplistic testimony. And we go through a period of refining and questioning, and then we have a more mature testimony on the other side. And yeah, I think that I mean, for me personally, since starting this podcast, I've heard of a lot of things that I didn't hear of before. And, you know, my coming back to the church was very much so, you know, drug related, and I was out. And my, my experience of coming back was like, the change of heart I experienced and the transformation of my life that was so powerful that I could not deny, you know, what I had gone, what I had experienced. And so some of the things that I've learned, it's really, it's made my testimony more mature, like, I understand the questions and, you know, I think that, you know, prior to even starting the podcast, I saw so many things on social media, and so many people leaving, and I saw their reasons for leaving, and I was like, you know, what, that is a good question, you know, what they're, they're posting about this and that is a good question. And sometimes it would leave me with like, a dark feeling like, what is the answer to that? I don't know. And it would cause me to search for answers and righteous places and ask God “Why”, you know? What is the answer to this? And, you know, by doing that, I was able to have a more strengthened, refined, mature testimony because I sought, you know, answers from a good source. And so anyway, one of the things that you talked about was that conference talks aren't scripture. And, you know, it's interesting because right now, I have this little book club that I'm doing with my, my podcast listeners, and we're reading The Crucible of Doubt right now. And it, one of the things that I read in The Crucible of Doubt was that, you know, I think it was a quote from President Oaks. And he said that, when they're talking in General Conference, they are talking from a generalized perspective for what makes sense for the general, you know, people of the church and, but there are situations that are, you know, require personal revelation. And I thought that was just really profound. And, like, for example, I think it was in Faith Is Not Blind, I referenced those books a lot in my podcast, because they're so powerful. But one of those situations was that like, you know, we're, we're taught to seek really a higher education. And they give an example of like, a in class at BYU, and there's all of these law students in there, women and men, and and then there was a talk given that was saying, you know, women should be home with the family whenever they can. And this is something I've personally, you know, it's a challenge that I've had in my own life, like, I'm a working mom, and I don't want to feel like I'm disobeying or doing something wrong because of that, but it was something that was mentioned. And, you know, but there's also this, you know, this call to get higher education. So we're being encouraged to get higher education, and these, these women are in law school, and they're pursuing this, but then also, they're hearing the message that like, hey, you need to be home with the, with the family. And that's one of those things where we have to find for ourselves our personal revelation. And there are things in the scriptures and that are contradictory and we need to find the answers from our Heavenly Father and that requires us to do that. And so I think that does come with a more mature testimony as you're experiencing these things. And you can you can be okay with that. Like, yeah, there isn't like a perfect alignment of every single thing that said in the scriptures or in conference talks, but you know, we're being led to a higher place and I love your testimony of that how, you know, you're choosing between these two things, and what makes the most sense for you, where has the most light? And that is just such a beautiful testimony. And I love that so much. Okay, I'm gonna ask you a couple questions. So, you mentioned a few resources that you use when you were coming out of your faith crisis. One was Fair Mormon. I think it's just called Fair now. And then, you mentioned Book of Mormon Central, which I had Jasmine from a Book of Mormon Central on my podcast. She's so amazing. I love her.
Bridger
She's great, she's great.
Ashly Stone
Um, what other what other sources do you recommend for people that might be struggling with a faith crisis?
Bridger
38:16
Yeah, so I think it all depends on like, I guess like what you're struggling with in your faith crisis. But in general, I always think, especially about church history, complex questions, more of a logical side of the faith crisis, is Faith and Beliefs from Saints Unscripted. David Snell, he does those videos. The Controversial Questions playlists, for me, that was absolutely the best resource because it wasn't so complicated and hard to understand. It was just presented simply, in a way that was like, easy to watch. And you could watch like, 50 of them and in a day, and it was enjoyable to watch. And so that's the number one resource I would always send people to who are struggling with like the logical side of a faith crisis. I think Seekers Wanted by Anthony Sweat. It’s a book. It’s a great book for you know, starting to navigate controversial church history and messy issues. Yeah, I think, you know, there's, there's good podcasts Come Follow Me podcasts and stuff that are that are good options, too. I think like, reading more like taking more of an offense too, you know? If you spend all of your time studying Joseph Smith's polygamy, that’s not a super fun thing to spend your whole life studying, right? You know? And so, I think it's good to read books like um, to read books, like A Case for the Book of Mormon, by Tad R. Callister, you know, playing a little bit of offense. Yeah, yeah. Resources like that.
Ashly Stone
39:44
Yeah. Okay, one of my favorite things that you've said tonight is that you after you've made the choice to believe that's when the spiritual experiences followed. And I am, that is beautiful. I just, that is just sticking with me that like, you know, when you're going through this, you had to, like, do the work and put in the effort of, you know, seeking righteous sources to answers to your questions. But, you know, that took an act of faith on your part for you to be like, hey, you know, I'm not going to just scroll through TikTok to find my answers, like, I'm gonna take a chance on that this is true. And I'm going to look to righteous sources. And then after you made that decision and put in the work, it's almost like, the miracle doesn't come until after the trial of your faith. And so, love that. Okay, so what do you, what advice do you have for people who are unsure the church is true? These are questions from followers, by the way, so.
Bridger
40:47
Yeah, no, you're good. Yeah, I think I mean, it's, I think we all should be a little bit unsure to some level. You know? Unless any of us have seen like an angel come down and show us the golden plates, then I think we can take, we can be pretty confident in our in our faith. But I think it's important to be unsure. And I think that's the purpose on why we're even here on earth in the first place. You know, faith is something we need to learn and develop and build. So unsurety is a beautiful thing. Belief is a beautiful, beautiful thing. So it's important to be unsure about your faith. And I think when you're when you’re have, like, I guess unsure, like with questions you have, I think it's really important to be patient. And also, because a lot of questions you have you apply, you want to apply the same level of scrutiny to like the question, as you do to the question applies to the church. Like if somebody says, Well, why is the King James Version written in 1600s, why is that quoted in the Book of Mormon? It's a great question. It's an important question that we should engage, right? And you're also asking, well, and like that's a good question. You want to ask on the reverse side, like, do I really believe that Joseph Smith memorized those lengthy King James versions, passages from his Bible, and put them and memorize them perfectly back into the Book of Mormon, even though his all, like his family didn't say he liked to read very much? Like he was he just secretly memorizing the Bible, to prepare for this? Like, it's important to realize that every single question people ask to the church, just counter questions that go back. So I would always make sure you're, you know, to not take every single question, think that's the end of the story. You know, you look at the counter questions.
Ashly Stone
42:36
Yeah, love that. How can a parent help a child who is out of the church without making them feel judged?
Bridger
42:45
Yeah, I think, I don't know. I wouldn't be like the expert on this one. But for me, I think just love you know, love your child. I'm, I'm a huge believer that this life is, the main purpose of this life is about who we are as people, you know. What we do with the, with the truth that we believe God teaches us. And so I think one of the worst things you can do for like someone who leaves the church is to try to take God's place and try to force what you see is true down their throats and force them to see it the way you see, that's one of the worst things we can do. You know, I think it's so important to recognize, like, you know, they have their reasons for leaving, you know. Whether it be questions in church history or not able to reconcile some controversial doctrines. And the best thing you can do is just trust that they're doing what's best for them. You know, trust, trust, trust them and trust their decisions. And then they will all figure it out together, you know. We will all figure it out and see what what's true or not, but just trust that they're making the best decision for them, and just continue to love and support them.
Ashly Stone
43:52
One of the things that I've asked people on most of my episodes is, do you feel like grateful for your faith crisis? Do you feel like you came out on the other side stronger? And I always get the response that yes, like, they, like you said, you have a more mature testimony. And so, I mean, I think that remembering that everything we go through on this earth is, you know, refining us and making us stronger, and we don't know what the future holds. Maybe this is a part in their journey that they need to experience so that they can come out with a more refined, mature testimony. And so, anyway. Um, okay, so, let's see, do you have any doubts or concerns or things that still bother you?
Bridger
Of course,
44:46
yeah, of course I do. There are plenty of things, you know, plenty, plenty of things. I would be a sheep if I didn’t. Yeah, I have plenty of doubts or frustrations or things still on my shelf that I don't quite understand. But to this day, like my when I ex my secular my ex Mormon shelf is way heavier, way heavier than the shelf I have for being a member of the church. You know, I think it's important to look at, like what I see as like the burdens of belief and the burdens of doubt, or the burdens of unbelief. And my burdens of belief are much lighter than the burdens of unbelief. There's harder questions, emotional, logical, and, you know, all in between. And I think, yeah, I don't I don't think any of us who really, you know, care about critical thinking and, you know, studying the gospel, we're ever going to get to a point where we're totally fine with all of our questions, you know. Having questions we can’t answer is good, you know. It's important. It’s part of it’s part of being a member of the church. You know, there's, yeah, yeah, that's, that's what I would say it's, of course, of course I have concerns.
Ashly Stone
45:54
Like, you can apply that to anything. I mean, you know, with politics, with just history, with anything, you can apply that. Like, we don't know the answers to everything we don't know, you know. There's questions in regards to everything. There's not a certainty in every single thing that we engage in, in our lives and but I think by the fruits of the Spirit, you will know, the truth of all things. And so, anyway, great answer. What, I mean, what else? Okay, this is one question that I personally have. As somebody that's really involved in TikTok, what advice do you have for people navigating TikTok with all of the crap that's on it and all of the stuff about the church and all of that, like what would you what would you say to somebody that wants to be on TikTok but is like getting affected by all that stuff?
Bridger
46:53
Yeah, it's a great question. I would say be kind, first and foremost. That's like, the most important thing going on TikTok. Like, I've seen members of the Church come on there. Who, you know, their initial knee jerk reaction is to get mad and maybe understandably so. You know, maybe they're, you know, yeah, they're justified being angry at some TikTok they see, but it's just going to come back and they're just going to get so much backlash and hate. Because like, it's there are there are a lot of you know, church haters on TikTok, a lot. I'm sure you've seen them posting clips, right?
Ashly Stone
Yeah, yeah.
Bridger
Like you're getting angry messages from people that happens like crazy, you know? And, like, I thought, like, yeah, when I initially started posting on TikTok, I knew I knew going in, it was gonna be bad, and that helped, like, prepare me for it. But it's been important because I've made so many friends in the ex Mormon, like Mormon critic community, you know, good friends, who are fantastic people who I chat with often. But their content is incredibly critical of the church. And I disagree with pretty much all of it. But I think it's important to realize that, like, you know, they're human beings and like, there's things that they see as harmful and your videos just as things that you see is harmful and their videos. And it's really important to like to not yell at them or get mad at them or, you know, claim, you know, claim that you're right, and they're wrong, but just engage in good discussions. Yeah, healthy discussion and definitely block you know, the weird 60 year olds that have found a phone somewhere and they're just commenting on everyone's videos as angry as possible. Joseph Smith said, you know, whatever, blank, blank, blank, fill in the blank, like, block those annoying dummies, you know, of course, but yeah, plenty of good people who are critical of the church, and I think just be kind to them, and they will be kind to you.
Ashly Stone
48:54
Love that. So, Bridger, tell us about what you've got going on. Tell us a little bit about your podcast and just you know, what you're doing these days?
Bridger
49:02
Yeah, so I'm, I still post on TikTok. I just, my thing is I just download what I see as ex Mormon videos and just cut them up and reply to them and add my perspective into the conversation. So I've been doing that I have the podcast working on Talking Doctrine, just trying to have conversations about the church, you know, as complex and hard as they need to be, just fun conversations. And then on top of that, just working on my you know, a CES Letter reply. And I don't know how long it's gonna take me 150 pages in and…
Ashly Stone
49:36
tell us more about this. What is your CES Letter reply?
Bridger
49:39
Yeah, so I’m just responding to what I see as all the arguments in the CES Letter. And it's just like a free PDF online PDF that I'm working on.
Ashly Stone
Sweet! I love that.
Bridger
Yeah, it's huge. Like yeah, I’m at 150 pages. I have no idea where it's going to end up. Because I'm gonna have to cut a lot, reworking lot. But I've been working on it for like six months, a couple hours a week, So. Still working on that, it's fun. I enjoy it. It's yeah, so.
Ashly Stone
50:08
That is so cool. Well, awesome. Do you have any final words of wisdom for us or anything you want to leave listeners with?
Bridger
50:16
Um, yeah, I think just, to me, always remember that faith is faith is a decision. And when you consider your faith, you know, always remember what are the burdens of belief and unbelief. You know, I think the idea of eternal progression with my family, being a child of God, the plan of salvation, you know, dram and dramatically outweighs eternal darkness and nothingness or random chance or just being some random statistical mutation of an ape. You know, I just think the burdens of belief, the blessings of belief are just so much better, and so much a better choice. And if you have, you know, questions you don't understand, there's awesome resources, you can message me you can message, you know, Book of Mormon Central, Fair Mormon, you can message, plenty of people, and there's so many people who are really engaged with these issues, I'd be happy to have conversations.
Ashly Stone
51:14
Do you have an email address where people can email you at if they have something they're struggling with?
Bridger
51:20
Yeah, just Bridger.coburn@outlook.com. Or you can just go to my Instagram, just bridgethoughts, and just send me a DM on there. That would probably be the fastest way.
Ashly Stone
51:30
Awesome. Okay. Well, I know I get people reaching out to me wanting to be in touch with my podcast guests because they have questions. So, I think that's awesome that you're willing to be a reference for people. Well, Bridger, this has been awesome. Thank you so much for being on the podcast and yeah, I am gonna go follow you on Instagram right now.
Bridger
51:51
Appreciate that. Thank you.
Ashly Stone
51:53
Thank you.
