"The greatest doctrinal truths, to me, is the atonement of Jesus Christ. It's in the Book of Mormon we get the phrase "the Infinite Atonement" and we learn all the ways the atonement is infinite, including being retroactive in time. We can be cleansed before the purchase price ever took place. In the Bible we know that Christ redeemed us from sin and death, but The Book of Mormon teaches us that it also had enabling powers and that He could comfort and strengthen us in our weaknesses and perfect our imperfections. It was not just designed to cleanse us, but to perfect us."
Come Back PodcastTranscription
ASHLY
00:00
And so we read your book in our book club, and we loved it. And so it's just, that's kind of where this idea came to reach out. And we're so grateful that you responded.
TAD
00:13
Well, I'm grateful for the work that you're doing. Because it is a time when— in fact we just had somebody leave the house a few minutes ago, who's struggling with their testimony, with his wife. And a lot of people are going through that right now. So it is a time when we need to bring all the powers of reason and the Spirit together to help people know it is true.
ASHLY
Mmhm. Yep.
LAUREN
00:37
Yeah. And I want to say really quick, I'm going to just fangirl right now. When I was coming back to church, like I had completely lost my testimony of God, not just, you know, the LDS church, but I was completely disconnected. And so when I was coming back to church, I gained a testimony of God. I got like this really powerful experience and answer to a prayer. So it was like, “Oh, I know Heavenly Father's there. He's listening to me.” And some men at my work, were kind of mentoring me back to the church. And I was telling them that and I was like, “I don't get who Jesus is though; I don't get this whole Jesus thing.” And my one boss said, “You need to read The Infinite Atonement.” And so your book The Infinite Atonement completely changed my life. I read it and I had an incredibly spiritual experience. And it was actually in the the chapter of the Garden of Gethsemane and I was just overcome with the Spirit and I completely understood who Christ was. And I felt so much love. It was just incredible. So I just want to thank you because you have changed my life so much by that book. Thank you so much.
TAD
01:50
Thank you for sharing that, that means a lot to me. I appreciate that. Thank you.
ASHLY
01:54
Awesome. Well, let's go ahead and get started. Like I said, we're just over the moon to have you on. All day we've been like, “Oh my gosh, today's the day!”
TAD
02:08
Hopefully you won’t want a refund.
ASHLY
02:12
No, not at all. So just a little bit of background in case anybody is not familiar with you. I'm sure most people are but have your bio here so I'm just gonna read it. Tad R. Callister was serving in the Presidency of the 70 and as a member of the Second Quorum of the 70, when he was called as Sunday School General President. He was released on April 6, 2019. He has served in a number of church callings, including full-time missionary in Eastern Atlantic States Mission, bishop, stake president, regional representative, mission president, and Area 70. Brother Calliste received a Bachelor of Science degree in Accounting from BYU, a Juris Doctorate degree from the University of California, Los Angeles, and a Master's degree in Tax Law from New York University Law School. He spent most of his professional career practicing tax law. He and his wife Kathryn Louise Saporiti… Did I say that right?
TAD
03:06
Saporiti. Uh huh. Tough one.
ASHLY
03:09
Okay. … are parents of six children. So with that being said, you wrote several books that obviously are amazing, but it seems like you really have a vested interest in sharing the truthfulness of The Book of Mormon. And there's a lot of people on the internet, and one of the big ones today is TikTok. People on TikTok that are saying all kinds of stuff and and you seem to have a passion for sharing the truthfulness, specifically around The Book of Mormon. And so I would love to hear more about where that came from, where your desire to write the book came from, and all the things.
TAD
03:59
Well, when I read the book, Lauren, for the first time, when I was 16 years old, I was reading about the 2000 sons of Helaman. And you can imagine how that would appeal to a 16 year old boy. And when I finished it, I think I had my first significant spiritual witness in my life. There just came a voice into my mind that said, “That story is true.” And I left thinking, wow, that story is true. And so I've always had a love for The Book of Mormon, particularly since that day for the doctrine in the Book of Mormon. And I always go back to the statement of Joseph Smith, who said that “The Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion.” And I believe that is the keystone of our religion because it's the keystone of our testimonies. If you believe The Book of Mormon, then the dominoes fall. You know that Joseph Smith had to be a prophet. And if Joseph Smith was a prophet, he restored the church to the earth. And all other questions, as important as they may be, are subsidiary questions to those key principles. Once you know that, you know this church is true, oh, this prophet may have had this flaw and that prophet may have had this flaw over here. Peter had his flaws. But you know, the central issues that are the keystone to a testimony: The Book of Mormon is true, Joseph Smith was a prophet, and the church was restored. And to me, once you know that, all the other issues are subsidiary issues.
ASHLY
05:43
Mmhmm. I love that so much. Um, we have quite a few questions for you that were submitted by people. And they're the questions are kind of, they're all over. My high school principal submitted a question for you. All kinds of people have submitted questions for you. And so I'm sure there'll be some discussion around those questions. So yeah, we'd love to start. So Lauren, if you want to kick us off, we'd love it.
TAD
06:13
Well, if they’re tough questions, I'll go get my wife and we'll bring her in.
ASHLY
Awesome.
LAUREN
06:20
Okay, so in your opinion, what is the most compelling historical or archaeological evidence of The Book of Mormon?
TAD
06:30
Well, I would say the most compelling historical archaeological evidence is not just one, but it's a combination of ones that make it so powerful. For example, in Joseph Smith's day, they laughed at the concept that an ancient people wrote on metal plates. That was comical. Everybody knew they wrote on papyrus, or parchment. That was really animal skins. And then finally, in 1933, a German archeologist discovers these metal plates of King Darius the first, who lived in fifteen … who lived in 516 BC, right during The Book of Mormon times, and what were the plates written on? Gold and silver. And what were they stored stored in? A stone box. And since then, of course, and doing discoveries in Jerusalem, they found the copper scrolls of Isaiah. And now we have many, many writings, ancient writings that are on metal plates, and all of a sudden, the critics no longer want to own that argument.
ASHLY
Mmhmm.
TAD
Then the next one was, well, there's just The Book of Mormon talks about cement cities and highways. And we know that's a joke, because there was no cement till after Columbus. In fact, Heber J. Grant tells that story that one of his friends said, you know, “Heber, you're smart. How can you possibly believe in The Book of Mormon that talks about these cement houses?” And Joseph Smith said, well, Joseph F. Smith, “It didn't really affect my testimony, one particle. If I don't find them in my day, I assume they will in my grandchildren’s day.” And then he tells a story, years later at Conference: “My counselor has been down to Teotihuacan, he's seen this cement mortar. I've been there now—the cement grid and drain pipes, all evidencing that cement existed at the time, The Book of Mormon times. And now we have structural engineers who are saying that the cement and the first product was some of the finest cement that's ever been made. So then all of a sudden, the critics don't want to own that argument anymore. And then it was domesticated barley. We all know that didn't exist till after Columbus. In fact, Dr. John Lund, who was an Institute teacher tells a story of a graduate student of horticulture, said “I can't believe The Book of Mormon anymore. I've done my research and they didn't have domesticated barley.” That was in the 70s. 1983, what do you think they find? Domesticated barley, and Hohokam Indian sites they dated back to 300 A.D. in southern states and also in Mexico. And you think, “If he just held on a little longer, he would have found out that The Book of Mormon was right.” It's a reminder: don't lose faith in the many things you know, because of a few things you don't know. And another one of course, was Alma. People made fun of the name Alma. It was a woman's name in Hebrew. They said it meant a betrothed virgin. And they made fun of Joseph Smith. It was just a female name. And then in the year 1961, they discover a deed in Jerusalem dated to the second century A.D., signed by how, who? Alma ben Yehuda, which means ALMA, the son of Judah. Oh, all of a sudden, the critics don't want to own that one anymore. And the last, I just mention for fun: is “it came to pass.” You know, Mark Twain had that wonderful comment, “If you took ‘and it came to pass’ out of The Book of Mormon, it’d only be a pamphlet.” And I'm reading through the Old Testament, I said, “Wow, this phrase, ‘and it came to pass’ comes up a lot of times.” Well in The Book of Mormon, it's 1404 times. You know how many times the phrase “and it came to pass” appears in the Old Testament? Over 1200 times. If you read Genesis 39, it comes up eight times in one chapter. And now as I’m reading in the New Testament, I'm surprised how many times the phrase, “and it came to pass” … And what does that have to do with anything? Well, why would Joseph Smith, if you were writing The Book of Mormon, just choose that, quote, boring phrase, because he wasn't writing The Book of Mormon, he was translating it. And it was an ancient Hebrew expression that was used as repetition in scriptural passages. So, you know, I think time and allies is a great ally of the Book of Mormon. And Joseph Smith was worried about The Book of Mormon and people believing it. And the witness came to Him. The Lord said, “The Earth will prove the truth of The Book of Mormon.” And we're seeing that as time goes by. Now Book of Mormon Central thinks they have evidence of horses that were found in Book of Mormon time. So I think that archaeology is not the main evidence of The Book of Mormon, the Spirit is, but it's just one additional component, testifying of its truthfulness.
ASHLY
Mmm. I love that.
LAUREN
12:01
And that was my favorite line in your whole book was that “the earth will manifest the truthfulness of The Book of Mormon.” When I heard that, it like, just chills all over my body. I just knew. I knew that line was true. I loved it.
TAD
12:15
And we see it happening. Yeah.
ASHLY
12:18
Yep. Yeah. And that's one of the things that came to mind for me was, I saw the Scripture Plus Instagram posts about the horses, and I was like, there it is. There it is.
TAD
12:29
Another one. Yep.
ASHLY
12:33
So what did you learn most from writing A Case for The Book of Mormon? What was your biggest, maybe takeaway or learning experience?
TAD
12:43
I think my biggest takeaway was just the absolute incredible doctrine that The Book of Mormon teaches. The Book of Mormon taught that many precious things meaning doctrinal truths, covenants, and ordinances would be lost from the Bible. And The Book of Mormon would store them or clarify them. And I see that you look at the time of Joseph Smith, and how do they baptize people? Well, some, some did immersion, but the same churches would allow sprinkling or pouring. You go to The Book of Mormon, and it makes it clear that it should be done by immersion. The time of Joseph Smith, how do people think you get the Holy Ghost they thought it would just automatically descend upon you when you were baptized or you confess Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon teaches the truth that you get it by the laying on of hands, exactly as was actually taught in the Bible and Acts 8 and Acts 19. You think about what should the name of Christ’s church be? Now you think this is a no brainer. Christ is the chief cornerstone of his church. He's the author and finisher of his faith. What in the world are you going to name his church after him? But what were the churches named at the time of Joseph Smith? Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopals, Seventh Day Adventists— all good people. But why didn't anybody think of naming it after its founder, Jesus Christ? And then what do you read in the Book of Mormon? “How be it my church, save it be called in my name? If it be Moses’s name it be Moses’s church. If it be in my name, it is my church if it's built upon my gospel.” And I wondered, “Could there really be no church at the time of Joseph Smith that was named after Jesus Christ?” So I asked a professor of BYU, Richard Holzapfel, if he’d research it. And he sent me back an email several weeks later that, “Yeah, it's hard to believe but these are the three closest names but there was no church named after Jesus Christ, at the time of Joseph Smith.” Somehow the Lord reserved that name for Joseph Smith, and The Book of Mormon all the time told us this was the name it should be. But maybe the greatest doctrinal truths to me were on the Atonement of Jesus Christ. It’s in The Book of Mormon that we get the phrase, “the infinite Atonement.” And we learn all the ways that the Atonement is infinite, including being retroactive at time, which is such an interesting concept that we can be cleansed before the purchase price ever took place. And that in the Bible, we know that Christ's Atonement was redemptive—He redeemed us from sin, He redeemed us from death. But The Book of Mormon teaches us that it also had enabling powers in that He could comfort and strengthen us in our weaknesses, and perfect our imperfection. So it was not just designed to cleanse us, but perfect us. And that's one of the great contributions of The Book of Mormon. And that's why Moroni 10, the summary chapter, you know you think this is the chapter is going to summarize the whole Book of Mormon. And what are the closing verses? “Come unto Christ and be perfected in him.” How? “Through the grace of the Atonement of Jesus Christ,” meaning, this enabling power. So I'd say the doctrine to me, you think about, or where do you learn about covenants of baptism? Can you find those in the Bible? You find them in The Book of Mormon? Where do you find the baptismal prayer, is that in the Bible? No, you find it in The Book of Mormon. All these great, incredible truths, somebody honestly believed Joseph Smith at 23 was so lucky, he was able to put the whole puzzle together that no one else had been able to do. To me, it wasn't genius, it was revelation.
ASHLY
16:49
I love that. It hits home for me so much when you talk about that, because I was a drug addict, 10 years ago, and my life was in shambles. And I went through treatment, and treatment after treatment after treatment, and I could not get help. And I just couldn't stop what I was doing. I was hooked on drugs. And I decided that I was going to read The Book of Mormon every single day and get my limited use temple recommend and just test it out and have an experiment and see if the atoning sacrifice of the Savior was really true. And if it would really help me and my whole life transformed. And it's like, I am a completely different person than I was 10 years ago. And when we talk about the enabling power of the Savior's Atonement, it just is so real to me. Because of it, I was able to do something that previously, it was nearly impossible for me to quit. And so when you talk about that, it just really like, is so special. And I know that people see that in their life, and it's like, how can you deny such a transformative power? So, anyway.
TAD
18:11
Well that was a beautiful testimony and a testimony that no matter where we are on the scale of righteousness or evil, the Savior can transform our life and He can change your life from ashes to beauty.
ASHLY
Yeah. Yes, thank you. Lauren, are you up next? Yeah, you are up next.
LAUREN
18:35
Okay, so where did you find the topics, when you were writing your book, for your anti arguments? A lot of times like, we don't specifically go through like anything with the CES Letter, but it gets brought up a lot on the podcast, because people have struggled with that. So is that somewhere that you went? Or was it just like, where did you go to find those topics?
TAD
18:59
Well, it's pretty easy to find them. I did read the CES Letter. Yes. And I did draw some things from the CES Letter, and I responded to them. And then I also read Fawn Brodie's book, No Man Knows My History. And that was kind of a turning point in terms of the argument of the critics, back in the 1940s. Before that, we'd had the argument that Joseph Smith wasn't bright enough to write the Book of Mormon. He had the equivalent of a third grade education. His wife said he couldn't write a coherent letter. So someone else had to write it. It was, you know, Sidney Rigdon was one claim. And then that didn't pan out too well, because he was converted by the very book he was supposed to have written. Then it was Oliver Cowdery wrote it, and that didn't pan out. And then it was he copied it from the Solomon Spaulding manuscript until they found the manuscript and found out it was completely different. And then it was he had a mental illness. And that mental illness endowed him with skills to write The Book of Mormon he wouldn't otherwise have. And you have to kind of smile at some of these, “Really?” And then, and then all those failed, and Fawn Brodie came out with her arguing with a completely different approach and said, “You know what? Joseph Smith was a genius. He was a creative genius, who read all of these books, and took these ideas from them, and was able to consolidate them into The Book of Mormon.” And now, it's interesting that at the time of Joseph Smith, all of his critics say he was not learned enough to write it. And then 100 years later, a lady doesn't even know him because those arguments didn't work, now say he's a creative genius, who read all of these books of which we have no record of him reading them, no historical record, took all these ideas and somehow by memory, because he translated without any notes in front of him, was able to dictate all this into one book. So I would say between Fawn Brodie's book, the CES Letter, and just going on the internet, looking at different issues, those were all sources, I tried to find all the key viable arguments I could against The Book of Mormon.
ASHLY
21:20
So this is kind of going off script here. But I am curious to know your thoughts on this, because we have so many people that come on the podcast, or people that have messaged me or sent me emails, and they have encountered the CES Letter where they previously didn't hear anything like that before. And the CES Letter just kind of rocks them. And I'm curious to know, what advice would you have for somebody that's encountered the CES Letter and is just struggling with those concepts? I mean, obviously, you have your book that responds to many of them, but what advice would you have for somebody that's in that place and struggling?
TAD
22:04
Well, I think that's a fair question. And I think no matter how bright somebody is, they're going to have questions about the church. And you would expect that. We have finite minds. And we have imperfect people, that we're going to have some questions about the church, but in law, I always learned that you have to go to the central issues, what are the key issues that you're trying to present? And the key issue is, is the Book of Mormon the word of God? If so, then everything falls into place. And I think the CES Letter does a very poor job of trying to prove that The Book of Mormon was not the word of God. When you go through all of the evidence, archaeologically, historically, doctrinally, all the golden nuggets that are found, there’s the witnesses. That's one thing that surprised me—the eleven witnesses. When I grew up, I knew about six or seven statements of the witnesses; I didn't realize there's over 200 statements, by the eleven witnesses confirming their truth of The Book of Mormon. And at least two of them whose lives were threatened: “Either you deny The Book of Mormon or we're taking your life.” “Then you have to take my life because I can't deny The Book of Mormon.” Wow, that's powerful. And of course, and then the great promise that if you read it, with real intent to find out it's true, you'll know it's true. And to me, that's the great witness of the book, when you read The Book of Mormon, do you have an intent to be a better person? I do when I read it. Do the doctrines seem reasonable and right to you and give you a peace? Yes. Do they enlighten your mind and say, well, that's a new idea. I never thought about that, and the Atonement before. And all those are witnesses of the Spirit, that it's true. And so I can live with some of the other questions that I don't have already answered for maybe polygamy, or someone's concerned about a statement by Brigham Young. To me, have you ever seen that statue of the wing, the Winged Victory? It's in the Louvre Museum? It's one of the masterpieces of all and she has no head and no arms?
ASHLY
Oh, yes, I think I do know.
TAD
Yes. It's one of the most beautiful statues, masterpieces of all time, but you know, what, if you focused on the missing head, and the missing arms, you miss the masterpiece. And if people just focus on this statement by Brigham Young or Joseph Smith’s marriage to someone who was relatively young in that day and age, you know what, they've missed the masterpiece. It's like someone focusing on Peter's statement, you know, in denying the Christ three times or, you know, walking on the water and then losing a little faith. If you focus on his few imperfections, you've missed the whole masterpiece. The greatest prophet probably in all of the Bible? So I'd say focus on the key issues, and you can live. That's a great statement you know, “Don't lose faith in the many things you know, because of a few things you don’t know.”
ASHLY
I love that.
LAUREN
25:15
Yeah.
ASHLY
Okay. Let's see. Oh, it's my turn. Okay. So did you have any notable spiritual experiences while writing this book that you would be willing to share or talk about?
TAD
25:31
Well, you know, I didn't see any angels have any bolt of lightning. But I did feel a spiritual impression to write this book. And I did feel an impression to do the research. And I, I just as I looked at all of the doctrine in the Book of Mormon, and, and, like King Benjamin’s sermon on the Atonement, the greatest sermon ever given. Those sermons touched my life. And then I did have one kind of interesting experience. After I'd written the book, sometime my secretary just kind of spontaneously said to me, “Well, do you know how many drafts you had of that book?” I said, “No, I don't.” She said, “72.” I typed 72 drafts of that book. And then I thought to myself, “Wow, it took me two to three years to write this book. All sorts of research notes in front of me constantly. And someone's trying to tell me that Joseph Smith at age 23, on the edge of the frontier, writes this book, the Book of Mormon, in 65 days, with no notes in front of him in a single draft, with minor grammatical changes.” I said, “If there were no Spirit, the reason alone would tell me, absolutely impossible. So, that was just another witness to me. That there's absolutely no way in the world this 23 year old man wrote this book with all this incredible doctrine. And why does he keep getting it right, in all the subjects and it was just a matter of brilliance? Weren’t there brilliant people between the time of the apostasy and Joseph Smith, why didn’t they get it right on baptism, and preaching the gospel to the dead and eternal marriage and the need for apostles and prophets? Because it wasn’t brilliance, it was revelation that came to Joseph Smith. That's why he got it right on all these issues.
LAUREN
27:42
You make it so obvious, like, how could you even doubt after listening to you? Seriously.
TAD
27:48
Well I don’t know how anyone could doubt, after you read that book, it’s amazing to me, particularly when I've tried to write books myself, and I know how long they take and how many notes you have in front of you and how much research you have to do. And there's just no way he absolutely wrote it in 65 days or in any period of time.
LAUREN
Yeah. All right. Um, this question comes from me and Ashly specifically. Because as we have been doing the podcast, we have been getting waves and waves of anti comments, especially like on YouTube and TikTok. So, we're wondering, how can we stick up for what we believe in without becoming combative?
TAD
28:38
Well, I think that's a fair question. And the Lord did say, “Come let us reason together.” And in the New Testament Paul talks about reasoning and synagogues. And I think the best ways are, one, to just reason with people without being upset, like we're trying to reason together. And to bear testimony to say, “I don't know how it's affected your life, but I know in my life, it's made a difference.” You told, Ashly, a beautiful story, and Lauren, I'm sure you have one at how you came back. It's made a difference in my life. And the Savior said, “By their fruits, ye shall know them.” And what are the fruits in my life? You know, what are the fruits of the people who live the gospel? And so I think you can reason with people. And you can bear testimony in a nondogmatic way. You can share the fruits of the gospel in your own life that are part of your testimony. And just your quiet example, I think are all the ways that we can share the truth of what we know to be right..
ASHLY
29:49
I love that. Yeah. That's so good. Thank you so much for that advice. Um, so this next question comes from my old high school principal, who's my dad’s friend. So he says, “Let's suppose that the person who asked who you asked to do this, did in fact, read The Book of Mormon, just as instructed in the introduction, and in the Moroni verse. But after reading the book, they still have their doubts that the book was true. So my question would be this, ‘How should we respond to their continued lack of belief, even though they had prayerfully read The Book of Mormon with real intent, just as instructed to do an approach, to do an approach to reading it?’ My initial response would be that they might not have read with sincerity of heart or in prayer that they thought they had, and that they should try again. However, that approach might be sort of confrontive and may not be the best thing to do. So what should we do in situations like that?”
TAD
30:48
Well, I think sometimes people, many times, particularly youth, have received witnesses, but they don't recognize them. And so I think you try to help people recognize them. What are the fruits of the Spirit? And I just had somebody here today at my house who had questions, and I said, ”When you read The Book of Mormon, did the doctrine seem reasonable to you?” He said, “Oh, yeah, I agree with all the doctrine.” I said, “Well, that's one of the witnesses to use that you felt a peace about the doctrine.” That's one of the witnesses of the Spirit. Do you when you read The Book of Mormon? Do you have an intent to be a better person, more Christlike? If you do, that's one of the fruits of the Spirit. When you read The Book of Mormon, do some new insights come into your mind about the Atonement, or baptism or what covenants are? And if so, that's a witness to you. And some people, I think, particularly youth don't recognize. They want an angel, or they want the bolt of lightning to come. And they don't recognize the Lord works in very subtle ways, in our minds, in our hearts and saying, “You know, when I read this, this seems right to me. You know, I believe in a premortal existence, I believe in preaching the gospel to the dead, that all makes sense. To me, I believe in the plan of salvation. And, yeah, I read it, I do want to be a better person. And I did get some insight maybe I hadn't had before. And maybe I have a softening in my heart,” and to help them recognize that maybe they did get some witnesses. They just didn't recognize them along the way.
ASHLY
32:32
Yeah, I love that we're actually, our book club this month— So last month was your book. And then this month, we're reading The Book of Mormon in 30 days, as recommended by one of our podcast guests, and I've had it on my playing the audio version of it every time I'm in the car, you know, any time, because it's a lot to do in 30 days. So we’ve got to be listening to it all the time. And I actually had this confrontation with somebody that was a friend that posted some things about the church that didn't sit right with me, I was very kind of disturbed by it. So I responded. And I reached out and I said, you know, “Hey, I felt that was not appropriate,” and gave all my reasons why and said, “You know, you might have had this experience, but mine's completely the opposite.” And it didn't end well. I thought I was like, being respectful. And I wanted to share my experience and it didn't end well. But I felt really, like, just disturbed after that whole conversation. And, and then I got in my car to go to the gym. And in the scripture that played, the second I got in my car was in direct response to that situation that I had. And I sent a screenshot of it to Lauren and I said, that just so many things like that have happened in the last 30 days that I've been listening to the scriptures and reading the scriptures. And, I know that I've heard President Nelson say that, “If you immerse yourself in The Book of Mormon, every single day, you will be immunized against the evils of the day, including pornography and other mind-numbing addictions.” And, and so I just think that it's so true that if I'm looking for those, or if I'm like, just casually reading just a scripture before I go to bed, or whatever it may be, isn't retaining as well. But since I've been immersing myself in the scriptures, it's like things have been just coming at me and I can't help but notice them. And I think that, you know, they could be dismissed as a coincidence that that particular scripture came right as I got in the car after that incident, but I truly think that if we have our hearts open to be looking for these things, we can recognize them. So I think that's just really great advice.
TAD
35:03
Well, you know, I think that's a good point you made, sometimes we are just toe-dippers in the gospel. And if you really want a testimony, you have to pay the price. And it's really not just reading, it’s studying the scriptures. And it’s not just praying, it's praying with real intent. And I think President Nelson talked about taking charge of your testimony, and there's a price you have to pay. The Savior had to pay an incredible price to bring about this Atonement. We have to pay a real price to get a testimony. And some people I think, you mentioned are maybe casual about it and expecting an answer, and you can't be casual. They can't, you know they say, you can't pray for an A grade and study for a B grade.
ASHLY
Yep.
TAD
You can’t pray for a testimony and then perform at a B level.
ASHLY
Mmhmm. I love that.
LAUREN
36:02
All right, I think it's my turn. Okay, someone asked, “How would you describe in one sentence, The Book of Mormon, to someone not of our faith?”
TAD
36:16
I guess I would say that “The Book of Mormon is the history of God's dealings with the people in America, just as the Bible is the history of God's dealings with the people in Israel, and thus fulfills a Bible prophecy than in the mouth of two or three witnesses, every word would be established.” So that was one long sentence. It is God's second witness of Jesus Christ and the Atonement.
ASHLY
36:48
Love it. Um, let's see. So out of all the books you've written, do you have a favorite?
TAD
36:56
I would say the favorite was probably The Infinite Atonement. Because it actually took me 17 years to write it.
LAUREN
Oh, wow.
TAD
And I didn't start to write it as a book. It was my first one. And I thought, every 30 days, I'm going to take a gospel subject and write on it, because I know that writing forces you to articulate your ideas and weed out the soft spots. And I wanted to do that. And so I listed all my questions on the Atonement. And after 30 days of that, well, I still haven't answered a lot of these. So I kept going and finally after 10 years of that, well maybe this can be a book. And I wrote for seven more years. And after 17 years, I just stuck it in the mail and sent it off to Deseret Book. I didn't know anybody, I just sent it off. But the whole focus of The Book of Mormon is to help us testify of Jesus Christ. And that helped me focus on Jesus Christ. And I learned so much about the Savior and the infinite nature of his Atonement. And I think the more you learn about the Savior, the more you not only appreciate him, but the more you're able to draw upon His redeeming and enabling powers in your life. And it opened my mind as to new insights about the Savior's powers and how to draw upon them. And, for example, one that just changed my prayers was I realized that one of the ways the Savior releases his powers to help us become like Him is through the ordinances, but another way is through the gifts of the Spirit. And you think when you're baptized, we're cleansed because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, but once we’re baptized and cleansed, we received the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and once we received the Gift of the Holy Ghost, we're then entitled to the gifts of the Spirit. And it's interesting that when you read about the gifts of the Spirit, the New Testament, The Book of Mormon, and the Doctrine and Covenants, they all have words like covet earnestly the best gifts, seek ye earnestly the best gifts, or in Moroni, it's interesting in chapter 10, where it talks about the gifts of the Spirit, it says, lay hold upon every good gift. And then it talks about coming into perfection. And really the gifts of the Spirit when you think about them, love, wisdom, patience are all attributes of godliness. And because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, He makes available that reservoir of the gifts of the Spirit. We’re not just limited to the gifts of the Spirit that are in our patriarchal blessing. We're limited, the gifts of the Spirit that we don't pray for… And remember Hugh Nibley asked, “What gifts of the Spirit don't you get?” He says, “the ones you don't pray for.” And so it changed my prayers. Pray for the gifts of the Spirit. I don't know how I got on that.
LAUREN
No, I love that.
TAD
But anyway, I think the book on the Atonement was the one that … And I learned one great lesson, I invited a very tough-nosed attorney in Los Angeles, who was an older gentleman, senior partner of a major law firm to review the book. And he came over to our law office, and we sat in a conference room, and he started to attack me on certain doctrines in a good lawyer-like style. And, I'm back bristled, and I was ready to defend myself as an attorney just about to fight back. And this thought came to my mind, really, was just divine thought: “Do you want to win an argument? Or do you want a better book?” I thought, “Wow, I’d like a better book.” So I bit my tongue. And I listened. And I learned, and it helped me kind of a guidance in my life to, or marriages or whatever: “Do you want to win an argument? Or do you want a better marriage? Do you want to win an argument? Or do you want a better book? Do you want to win an argument? Or do you want a better friendship?” Even kind of a hopeful model to me.
ASHLY
I like it.
LAUREN
Yeah, yeah.
ASHLY
41:19
Okay, is it me? Or is it you? I think it's you.
LAUREN
41:23
Okay, so this one's kind of for our book club. But do you have any recommendations or resources for people that are struggling with their testimony, like certain books or websites? Obviously, we know about FAIR, and Scripture Central and the church website, but mostly, I really want book recommendations, but anything you've got?
TAD
41:49
Well, I'm probably not real helpful, in this, because I learned a lesson for me when I was writing The Infinite Atonement. I had a lot of questions. And my first impulse was to go to commentaries and other books. And then the thought crossed my mind. Try to figure it out yourself first, before going to other books. And I found when I did this, and I would try to read all the scriptures on the subject, I would try to think it out in my mind, pray about it, that it did this for me, then I then when I went to the commentary, sometimes their answer was the same as my answer. But now it was mine, not theirs. And sometimes my answer was different than the commentaries. But if I'd gotten to the commentaries first and not paid the price of studying it out, my thinking would have been prejudiced. And I would have never gotten to where I was. So I would say, let the main diet course be the Standard Works. And studying them, pondering them, and even taking the time to write about them and let all other sources, including my books, be secondary sources. So that.
ASHLY
43:12
I think that's so good. One of the the real tipping points that made me want to just start the podcast was there was a thing going around, I had the impression to start the podcast and even the name “Come Back,” the “Come Back Podcast,” even that, like, I just had this impression that I needed to do it and but I just kind of was like, “I work, I'm a mom, I'm married,” that like, “I have very little time.” And I just kind of kind of kept pushing it aside. And then there was this thing going around on social media where it was called “Not Gonna Lie,” and people were posting, they were asking anonymous questions, and people were responding. And it kind of just opened up this like breeding ground of people talking about why they left the church and all these things. And I saw people posting and getting in arguments in like common sections and stuff about their things with the church. And I saw some things that I was like, “You know what, that actually is a good question. Why is that?” And it kind of made me feel uneasy, and I just felt uneasy about it. And I thought, “You know what,” and I've had a similar experience with polygamy before where I felt uneasy about it, and I didn't know how to answer it. And I just prayed about it. And actually my little sister who had just got home from her mission, she was the one that said, “You need to ask Heavenly Father what His answer is. Don't go to… you ask Heavenly Father to work this one out.” And so I kind of did that and I I prayed about it. And I did read my scriptures and I really pondered on it and tried to receive my own answer and, and I did receive my own answer and it was a really incredibly beautiful experience for me to have a question that was a hard question that I didn't know the answer to, and be able to turn to the scriptures and turn to Heavenly Father instead of turning to the internet, because it was like the answer. It wasn't something that was like, “The reason that we had to have polygamy was because of this.” It wasn't like an answer like that. But it was an answer that satisfied my, my question and in my heart, and maybe that isn't enough for somebody that I'm, you know, somebody in the YouTube comments section, that's not going to work for them. But for me, it was resolved, it was completely resolved in my mind. And so I just love that you say that, like, it's not about finding the right book or the right, you know, the right resource. It's about truly, I think, seeking your own personal revelation from Heavenly Father about, you know.
TAD
45:54
Yeah, I think those other resources, they’re all good. But I think first and foremost, we should pay the price to try and find the answer for ourself. And when we do that, I think we open the doors even greater to revelation in our own lives.
ASHLY
46:10
I love that so much. So what are some things, the world is crazy, there's so many things going on in the world. And it just continues to get more worldly, I guess you could say. Um, what are things that you do that help you stay close to the Savior and help you just feel closer to our Heavenly Father, and Jesus?
TAD
46:44
I'm sure they're probably the same things you do, and I don't have what I might call dramatic answers. I just try to be steady, I try to pray every morning and every evening individually and with my wife. I do spend time studying the scriptures every day. I prefer to read them versus listening to them, although I do both. But I prefer to read them because it requires greater concentration, I think, to read than to just listen, but sometimes you don't have a choice. But I like to read them. And I like to write about them. Because that seems to me to invite inspiration when he requires greater concentration of thought. And I am trying to go to the temple more regularly like President Nelson's asked us to do and I think everybody has different circumstances, timewise, but they just do what they can there. And I'm not there, but I try to pray that I can think like the Savior and feel like the Savior and act like the Savior and try to help people every day. And my wife's much better at that than I am. But that is a desire that I have. And so I think we just do the simple things that the Lord tells us to do to pray regularly and sincerely. It's, “The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man or woman availeth much.” “Feast upon the words of Christ, for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things that you should do.” And I thought, how can the words of Christ tell you all things they could do? Can I read Mosiah and find out who I should marry or Alma and what career I should pursue? And then I finally realized that they thought it out? Well, they do. Because the Scriptures teach you correct principles, when you study them, and they invite the Spirit to use those principles for every specific situation in life. So I think we just do that. And then I think another thing is to follow the prophets cheerfully and happily and to obey the commandments with a smile. And sometimes honestly, I've come to a different opinion than the prophets or apostles might come to in my own reasoning. I've said, “Well, I think I would have done it this way.” But then I know there's a higher law. And that higher law is to follow them. And so I trust their own judgment more than I trust my reasoning powers. And as long as we follow the prophets with a smile, I think that brings us joy, too. So those are just some thoughts. I'm sorry, spontaneous.
ASHLY
49:37
Love it. Okay, Lauren, I think you're next.
LAUREN
49:41
Yeah, I think we all know the answer to this question. So it might be just to glaze over it. But “Have you ever struggled with your faith and how did you overcome?”
TAD
Well, I don't know if I've ever had a serious struggle with my faith, honestly, but I did have one experience. When I was 14, my 15 year old sister suddenly died, who I was very close to. And she had been given a prayer of the blessing of health and recovery. And I remember praying that she would come back to life. I was a 14 year old boy. That didn't happen. And that troubled me because I thought I had faith and faith in the priesthood blessing. And then one day, I don't know how old I was, maybe it was a year later I read a scripture in the Doctrine and Covenants and said that “He that has faith to be healed,” and then it says, “and is not appointed unto death, shall be healed.” And all of the sudden that scripture struck me that my sister was appointed unto death. And that scripture said, death would be sweet unto her. And somehow, that scripture just gave me a peace of mind that she could have all the blessings in the world but it would make no difference. The Lord wanted her on the other side. And I think that the scriptures bring to us I think, like you talked about, I don't think it was a coincidence. I think the Lord gives us those scriptures as we study them as we need them in our lives. And that was a help to me, and I have all sorts of questions. You know, I think we all should. But my testimony is really centered in The Book of Mormon, the Prophet Joseph and the restoration, the church, and I marvel at all of the doctrines that had been restored. It's just absolutely amazing to me that we have this wonderful doctrine of this plan of salvation. We taught the plan of salvation one time to our son, who was about 16 years of age, just laid it all out, drew it all out. When we were done, he said, “Mom and Dad, why doesn't everyone believe this?” And that's how I feel about the gospel of Jesus Christ in The Book of Mormon. Why doesn't everybody believe it? It makes so much sense. And feels so right. And it's true. And I had that witness, that I bear witness of, in Jesus’s name, amen.
ASHLY
52:25
Thank you so much. Well, this has been an incredible episode. And we're just, we could not be more grateful that you were willing to take the time out of your busy schedule to be on the podcast with us. And we just, we think you're so awesome. And we're just …
LAUREN
It’s just such a privilege.
TAD
52:45
Well, you need to raise your standards then.
ASHLY
52:48
No, no.
52:50
Well you two are doing a wonderful work. And we have so many good people who struggle with the gospel, and some have left. But the truth is, if you leave, there's nowhere to go. If you leave, I've always said this church ruins you for any other church, ‘cause you know too much.
ASHLY
Mmhmm.
TAD
You're not going to be happy in another church, and it's going to either become a church unto yourself or you're going to become an agnostic, because you'll never be happy with another church that doesn't teach the premortal existence, preaching the gospel to the dead, eternal marriage, all of these other great truths.
ASHLY
53:25
Yeah. Yep. I agree. Well, any final thoughts before we sign off here?
TAD
53:34
Oh, just my honest thanks to the two of you for what you're doing. That's so needed in this day and age to reassure good people who have questions or who or who have left that maybe need another vantage point from what the two of you can offer which is so valuable. Thank you.
ASHLY
Thank you so much.
LAUREN
Thanks.
