"The church is alive, it is a living gospel. The way to know the difference between a live houseplant and a fake houseplant is that the real one has brown spots and dead leaves. There's going to be imperfections in anything that is alive and growing and living. It's just a fact of life. We are all human and make mistakes. The church is a living organism."
Come Back Podcast
ASHLY
00:14
Brooke, so, so pumped to have you on the podcast, we met at the– we work in the same industry. And so we met at the Utah Fall conference. And you told me a little bit about your story then. And it's funny because I got your business card. And I had thought about what you had told me a couple of times, because your story's really unique. And I had thought about it because, you know, I know that there's other people out there that probably would really benefit from hearing your story. And so I thought about it a couple of times, and then I found your business card randomly, a couple days ago, so I just sent you an email, and then now here we are.
BROOKE
00:55
Yeah, I love this podcast. And I've gotten so much light from the other guests you've had on the podcast. And so when I saw you at that conference, I was like, “Oh, my gosh, I have to reach out to her and tell her how much this podcast has impacted me and how much I love listening to it.” Because I feel like it's just so uplifting, and like you've said previously, there's just so much negativity in the world, and adding to the light that people can receive is just such a great opportunity. It's also like, as I've been preparing for tonight, I feel like, it's also like, I feel a lot of pressure. Are people that are listening to this podcast in a vulnerable place with their faith? And I feel that sense of responsibility. How can I help these people? And how can I communicate my story in a way that's going to uplift and strengthen them? And, you know, if people are teetering on the edge, is something that I'm gonna say, you know, push them away? It kind of feels like a lot of pressure. But I'm going to do my best to just share my story. And I'm going to just be honest and vulnerable about where I am now. I feel like we all have ups and downs. And I feel like that's just part of being a saint. And it makes me think of my story in a punch line is, if you're that cliche, if all your friends jumped off the cliff, would you jump off the cliff? And my whole entire family of origin decided to jump off the cliff of leaving the church all at the same time when I was 18. And I was very much caught up in all of that and had a ton of doubts, but just had a lot of experiences that showed me that God cared about me and that I was in the right place, and that being in the church is something that He wanted for me.
ASHLY
02:44
When you were growing up, was your family pretty strong in the church? Like what did it look like growing up and your testimony?
BROOKE
Growing up, we were all very, very active. Very active. My parents are pretty extreme in all of their beliefs. And they had a lot of extreme views about the church and a lot of extreme views about pretty much everything. We were homeschooled, well, unschooled for a lot of it, and homeschooled for some, and with my dad, he had a lot of mental health issues. My mom did as well. And my upbringing was pretty unstable, I would say, just because there was so much up and down with my parents and what they believed in, in conspiracies and different thought patterns and things like that. And I feel like something that kind of predicated them leaving the church was my dad was very authoritative in our home, and it was kind of my way or the highway. And he very much used the church kind of as a weapon. And the priesthood as, “I'm in charge of the family. I'm the leader.” And so that was pretty unhealthy. But because we were so active, you know, we went to church, every single Sunday. We did our home teaching, we did visiting teaching and ministering, and all of you know, they always held callings, and all of that. So I did have a ton of exposure to the church. And I feel like that's something that kind of helped me later in my testimony as I saw all these other active saints and the way that they live their lives, I spent time in their homes, especially as a teenager, I had a really close friend group and I spent a lot of time in their homes with their families, who were LDS and I saw just a lot of different patterns of living in the LDS faith. And I knew that was something that I wanted for my family. And I could see that my dad's interpretation of the gospel was not how it’s intended. So when I was a teenager, I was about 17. And I'm one of eight kids. And I'm third. So I have two older sisters. And then after me, there's quite a big gap. And then five more kids down there. So it's almost like two families where there's the three of us girls up top and then there's like another small family even though we're all biological siblings, same parents. My older sister is married, and my sister that was just older than me was serving a mission in Scotland, and I was a teen. I was working, preparing to go on a mission. I always wanted to serve a mission. That had been a dream of mine since I was a kid. And when the age changed, I was like 16, or 17. And I was like, it's locked in, like we're going, I learned to speak Spanish, because I really wanted to go speak Spanish speaking, I was like, send me to a hut in the middle of nowhere, I will like eat all the crazy food, I will do whatever you want, I'm so ready. And I really wanted to go to South America somewhere. And I was like, preparing for my mission, I was 17, 18, turned 18 and prepared my papers. And I turned in my papers. And I was like, just waiting, ready to go.
06:14
And then my mom and my dad had been, like getting into some doctrines online, and they kind of found this fringe group that they really identified with. And then my sister came home from her mission. And she immediately was in sync with this group that my parents found. And then my oldest sister started to get involved as well. So kind of over the next year. So this fringe group believed a lot of different things. And a lot of their practices, you know, anti-Mormon doctrine is sinister in that it kind of sells you on a truth. And then there's this domino effect of if/thens, and it kind of sells you like, just down the rabbit hole of these things that aren't even really true. And I feel like my family just got sucked into these beliefs. And a lot of them started out very good. And I feel like that's kind of a tactic that is used to kind of divert people away from the faith. But how they first started out was this friend group was like seeking, seeking the face of Christ, and learning more about Christ and stopping to rely on leaders and prophets and other individuals to get there. So that was kind of the message. And this fringe group leader, he had a book, and a bunch of different books. And so I was obviously interested in this, it sounded great. You know, we all love Jesus. So we want to get closer to Jesus. And so I was like, “This sounds great.” And so I read the book, I thought the book was wonderful. And I was like, “This sounds amazing.” And so like, I was just right there with them. Like, I was just being fed down the rabbit hole of, yeah, “you don't need like anyone else. You don't need prophets, or you don't need bishops in-between,” you know, in air quotes, “in between you and revelation.” And so I was like, very much like all about this, you know, yeah, seeking revelations and kind of sign seeking almost like seeking these big revelations and visions. And it's very exciting. You know, it's like, who's gonna have the next experience, you know, and I feel like, our normal life is just so humdrum, with the way that we receive regular revelation. It's, the Spirit is a still small voice, you know, and that's not the fireworks that are exciting. And so I was like, wow, these people in this fringe group are having a lot of firework experiences, you know, they're, you know, having all these visions and these spiritual gifts they're talking about, and it was very interesting. And I was very much like, going along with it, and it's kind of sold down this rabbit hole of “Yeah, who needs prophets and all of that when you can have your own experiences?” and …
ASHLY
09:34
Did they believe in the Book of Mormon and like temples and stuff like that?
BROOKE
Oh, yeah! Oh, yeah. And they were like, very much like, all still within the faith, and everyone was still LDS. But it was kind of, they started to break off a little bit. And then so my family, I grew up in Washington, mostly. And we spent a year or two in Phoenix and in California, but mostly Washington, Eastern Washington. And so I was like, pursuing this path with them. I was very interested in all of this. And my sister came home from her mission, and like, just as a family, we kind of all, were very interested in this group, because they weren't telling anyone to leave the church, it was just like pursuing more, stop to rely on General Conference talks and all of that. Just like, it's just between you and God. And I thought that was a great idea, like, and that's kind of how Satan works, you know, he sells you on this, like, you should have a connection with God, which is true. And then your spirit resonates with that being true. And then it's like, slowly, they sell you on one, and then they, take you to church, basically. So, I was following along with this. And we moved down to Utah, as I moved down with my older sister, who just got back from her mission. And we had a whole group of these members who are pursuing these different traditions. And so we started meeting with them regularly, like in their homes, and they started doing sacraments differently, like throughout the week. And then I started noticing that, like some of the members that were coming, and a lot of the members that were coming, were starting to say that they were stepping away from the church, but that they were having all of these amazing experiences with God. And so it was, I was a little bit confused, because I had a lot of wonderful experiences in the church as a youth, and as a kid. And I really attribute a lot of my faith to just seeing the good examples of saints that I knew. And I knew that, I know that’s not everyone's experience. And sometimes it's the polar opposite, that the saints have caused problems in their faith. But for me, like, the saints that I had met and associated with were good, solid, valuable people that I wanted to pattern my life after. And so I was confused by, like a lot of the people that I knew, kind of stepping away from the church that I loved. And so I was like, “Well, what is really going on here?” you know? I was kind of confused. And as we started going to more of them, there just started to be this undercurrent of negativity toward the church. But they still were very much focused on Christ and focused on renewing your covenants, like they did sacrament in their homes. And I thought it was beautiful. I was like, this is wonderful, you know, you're taking your covenants seriously. And although it's very alternative, it was like, they did it, I felt like sincerely and they really believed that they were coming closer and thinking and pondering about this. So I was like, “Okay, well, I think this is valuable. And these people, obviously, you're having this experience. So I'm gonna look into this.” And just kind of as I went to more of these meetings, this negativity started to pop up and up and again, and then they started to like, introduce different doctrines and some things to kind of raise my eyebrows. But my family was like, pretty much all the way into this now. And then, more people were being invited to these meetings that I've seen, that a lot of these people that were being invited, had been excommunicated from the church or had left the church and removed their records. But I still was believing this, and I am not ashamed to admit that. Like I was fully in. Then they were talking about rebaptism. And just renewing your covenants and recommitting and I was like, “Wow, this sounds wonderful. It sounds like a recommitment to God.”
14:14
And so like I participated and, I went with my family, and we all got rebaptized down in Saratoga. We went to a hot spring. And it was a very nice day. I felt good after I had been rebaptized. I felt recommitted. It was different than the first time I was baptized. But I do think it was a nice experience. Like it was a good way to show like, “Oh, I'm recommitting.” And I felt good after I did that. And so I was like, “Man, I'm feeling good. I'm feeling the Spirit. And I'm just continuing down this path with these people.” But still, you know, having some reservations because I was seeing that a lot were separating from The Church and I just always, when I would come to church and sit in a pew, I felt the Spirit like I knew that there was the Spirit in that building. And so I was kind of confused about that situation. I didn't really know how to handle it and, and I was praying more than I ever had at this time. And I think that also kind of led to my confusion too, because I was like, I'm closer to God than I've ever been. I'm seeking answers and praying. One of this–this is an interesting topic of discussion, because my parents always had this very unequal relationship, it was not an equal partnership, where my father, you know, dominated and controlled, and everything was his way. And one of the beliefs of this fringe group was, they believed in an alternative record, in addition to the Book of Mormon, and they believed that they were both records of the people in the Americas. And one of their records, said that there were like, this Council of Women would decide who got the priesthood or not. And as my family started to go down this rabbit hole, they started believing that the women made decisions about who got the priesthood, and all of a sudden, like my parents’ marriage became better than it ever had before. And like, my dad was treating my mom as an equal partner. And this is so hard for me to discuss, because
16:42
what do you do in that situation, if you're my mom, you know, the fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, and you're going down this road, and all of a sudden, your whole life turns around, and everything starts to get better. And I'm, I'm sure that other people have the same experience, if they've got a spouse, that's, you know, maybe doubting the church, and they're fighting or they're resisting, you know, there's all this tension, and then they decide to leave the church, and all of that tension is gone, you know, fruits of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, all of that is returning, what message is that sending to me? And I think that can cause a lot of confusion. So that was what happened with my family. And then they started to believe more and more of these things, you know, that the women had the priesthood. And I've always, growing up in that household, obviously, gave me some pretty strong opinions about women and feminism, and you know, the situation of the church. And so I was very much all about that. And I was, but I was still very confused about what was my future in the church. And I was praying and praying about, you know, what decision to make, because my family then decided that they were going to leave The Church. And so my oldest sister, and my brother-in-law, all of my brother-in-law's family, and then my older sister that was next to me and her husband, she had gotten married in that year, they decided to leave and my parents, and by default, you know, my 13 year-old brother and the other, you know, ones that were younger than that. So like, everyone just decided to just flip the table and make the step and leave. And I wasn't ready to do that. But I was still very much sympathetic to all of these beliefs that they had. And I was like, praying and praying for this revelation of what I should do. And, you know, because I had been so confused by all of the conflicting doctrines. And I remember I was standing in my living room. And my sister was talking to someone else about how she believed in multiple mortalities, and how a loving God could not say that you only get one chance, I remember her saying that, like, “You can't have a loving God, and then he just decides that you only get one shot. And if you screw it up, you're done.” And I remember her saying that and saying that, like, if you mess it up, you can come back, and you can try again. And you can do better and better and better the next time. And I remember her saying that, and then like, clear as day like, I'm not a very logical person, but like, clear as day in my head I clearly saw and I feel like it was revelation. Absolutely, revelation, I just clearly saw in my mind, the words like, “You don't need Jesus.” And that like threw up all of the red flags that I've been waiting for, you know, because there were these green flags about this, these truths and you know, these beautiful things that they've been teaching. But there were a couple small red flags from different things. But that was the big one that I was just like, if you can come back and you can perfect yourself, and you can get better every time that you complete immortality, then you reach perfection all on your own. And you don't need a Savior. You don't need an Atonement. And you don't need to humble yourself in this life because you can just try it again. If you don't, if it doesn't work, I'd like to be fair to my family like, it did seem like a 180. Because I was like, in this, but I had these questions and these red flags. And then like, I had this moment where I was just like, “Nope, forget all of that.” Like, “This is the red flag that I needed.” And I'm out, basically.
20:48
So like, I've never stopped going to church. But I definitely wasn't very faithful, and believing that everything I was hearing was true, I was kind of seeing through rose-colored glasses at that point. But like, I came back to church, and I sat in the pew, and I was like, I know that this is the truth. Like, I know that what my family is doing is going the wrong way. And I don't want to go that way. And so I just kind of, but like it took me at least a year, coming back to church and saying like, “I am committed to this, I know that this is the truth.” I was still at the bottom of the faith, like my faith level was zero. And I needed to regain my testimony of everything. Because I didn't have one anymore, you know, because I was like
ASHLY
21:35
And your whole family is in this other, you know … You separated yourself from your whole family. And I can imagine that that was really challenging for you to do.
BROOKE
21:46
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And the next year, I ended up getting married, and decided to go forward with a temple endowment and temple sealing. And that was an incredible experience. I know, that's another thing that people have– sometimes that's a hurdle for people, the temple is, but for me, it was absolutely not. Like that was confirmation that I needed. I've always loved going to the temple and doing baptisms. And then when I received my endowment, I was just like, “This is so beautiful, and pure.” The Spirit just washed over me. And I just knew that I was in the right place. And there was a lot of special things that happened to me to regain my faith, like step by step. And I really do feel like I had to build it block by block. Because I remember after coming back, and I feel like I never really left. But at the same time, like my mind was a totally different place. And then I decided to stick with what I knew was the truth. And what I knew was solid. And when I came back, I remember, like General Conference, had tickets to General Conference for the first time. And we went and they asked us to sustain the prophets. And I just took notes, because I didn't even know at that point. Sustained anyone? I was like, I don't even, I can't right now. And like, I can't raise my hand and say that I will be if I don't know. And I need to mean that. And I did. But in the temple, I got married the next year and my family all still had recommends because it had been less than two years since they left. So when I got married, they could attend. My mom asked me if I would like her, them to attend, them all to attend. And that was a lot of pressure. I prayed about that. But I eventually just ended up having a conversation with her. And I said, “Well, Mom, can you honestly answer all the questions that are on the temple recommend interview?” And she was like, “Well, there are loopholes, you know,” and I was like, “What? There are no loopholes. Like it's yes or no. Like, do you believe this? Do you do this?” And at this point, like they were all way off the path and drinking and like doing substances and like not keeping their covenants, actively leading other people away. And I was like, “If you don't feel like you can honestly, in good faith, answer the temple recommend interview questions, then I don't think you should go. Like if you haven't already been going to the temple.” And she agreed to that. But then, over the next several years, there was this huge rift because it was like “Brooke didn't want us at the wedding.” And so it was kind of this big rift and they saw me as being flaky, because I was in and then I was out. I paid for that, with them. There was a lot of relationship building that needed to happen. And it has, it's been a long journey there. I call myself the white sheep of the family, because I'm the only one. I'm totally, like for about three or four years, I was completely ostracized. And they would talk very negatively about me and my husband and, just rag on us and stuff. And I was like, I'm the one being good. And none of them are even Christian anymore. They had a path out of the church that was, “We're going to be more faithful, and we're going to be seeking Christ more. And we're going to strive. The Church isn't challenging us enough.” And that really struck a chord with me, I felt in the church that I wasn't challenged enough. And I remember them saying, you know, if you've ever sat in a Sunday School lesson and been bored, that's because they're not revealing any new truths. And you're just being taught about tithing for the 10th time over again. And I was like, “Oh, man, like I have so been bored in Sunday School.” I am absolutely a millennial, I have the attention span of five seconds, like, I get so bored in Sunday School, and especially when it's something we know about already, and blah, blah, blah, I was sold on that. And that's kind of, again, the pattern. They sold me on this truth of “I have been bored in Sunday School; you have got me there.” And then there's this “if/ then,” and “if you're bored in Sunday School, then that means that there's no new revelation.” And those if/then statements that they do, absolutely sell you down a path that you have to question every single step. Like, if I'm bored in Sunday school, does that mean that there's no new revelation? No, that's not true. Like you have to question every– But like, when you're talking with individuals that are leaving, they will use these if/then statements, but not in an if/then way–Just they'll say that's because,
ASHLY
Yeah.
BROOKE
and they'll just like, logically lay it out for you in a way that seems to make so much sense. And it's like, “You're so right. I've been bored in Sunday school. And it's been a while since I've heard something new. And I have learned about tithing like 10 times, and I've paid my tithing fully …” you know? And then you get sold this lie that you're not expecting. I feel like coming back into the church, I had a lot of experiences that really showed me that God was looking out for me and ways to strengthen my faith. And that's the first half of my comeback story.
28:09
The second half of my comeback story happened about, I'd say about two years after my first comeback, I was still like, building my testimony, I would say, I found an opportunity through Just Serve to be a rape crisis advocate. And I was volunteering for rape crisis in the evenings and on the weekends. And I was very passionate about that. And then like this big news story broke, about sexual abuse in the Church, and the church's response to it, I felt was way off. And I was like, it really shook me, you know, and the Church is not perfect. We all make mistakes. The General Authorities make mistakes. And it's okay to admit that and say, “We don't have all the answers, and we don't, we don't know why.” Anyway, this story broke and the church's response I was frustrated by, and it just kind of brought back up all of these issues that I had about women, and about the gospel of, you know, and the polygamy and current temple polygamy practices. And then I started just, those colored glasses just came right back on. And I was seeing everything through this lens of “women are not valued.” Women aren’t valued. And like I had a major faith wobble, I would say even more major than my first because I was like, “This is ridiculous. We can't treat women like this. This is …” you know, I just got all up in my head about it anyway.
ASHLY
Yeah.
BROOKE
So I had a long journey to come back to that. But how it started was, you know, I obviously prayed. And I was reading my scriptures and studying and I just couldn't get answers. And every time I'd go to church, I was frustrated. And I would sit in church and all I would hear, like in the talks, was things about women. ‘Cause all I was listening for was like, more confirmation of what I was feeling. And I was very frustrated. So I decided to meet with my bishop. And I had, I was lucky enough to have a great bishop at the time. I was so frustrated. And when I get frustrated, I cry. And so I was like, I know, I'm not gonna make it through this. If I just go into this meeting, and I just like, this is like the 99 things that I'm frustrated with, like, why don't we have more answers about this, and like, this is so important to so many women that I've talked to and like, blah, blah, blah, and I was all upset. So I decided to write my bishop a letter. And I just, it was, honestly, so healing just for me to like, write down all of the, like, frustrations that I had. And like, all of the questions that I had about, you know, the feminine divine, all the questions that I had about temple polygamy, all the questions that I had about the sealing ordinances and all of that. I wrote it all down. And then at the end, like the question, I remember the wording that I left on the end question is like, how am I supposed to find the motivation, the motivation to be good in this life, when The Church preaches that women are just basically supposed to be glorified baby factories, and I have infertility, so I can never experience the joy of womanhood and glorified baby factoring or something like that. I was upset.
ASHLY
“Glorified baby factoring,” ha ha ha.
BROOKE
31:48
I was upset. Anyway, I came into the meeting. And the bishop was like, “I really appreciate you writing me that letter. So I really understand where you're at. And I want you to know that you're not alone.” And I was like, I was touched by that, but also more angered by that because I was like, “Well, if it's a problem, run it up the flagpole! You know, why are we talking about it? You know, go talk to a president, talk to the Area Authorities, get us some answers, you know?” And he was like, “I want you to know that I hear you, and that your concerns are valid, and that I don't have any answers for you.” And I just immediately broke down in tears. And, and he shared, like, an experience that he had, he said he served in Africa on his mission. And he was sitting in church and worshiping with these beautiful saints. And he was like, “How could a church that I believe in, not grant the priesthood, and sealing covenants and ordinances to these beautiful saints that I love so much?” And a brother in his mission told him about the faithful saints in that area before the policy changed, that they were allowed to get the priesthood, they would set up chairs outside the building and listen to the hymns through the window. And he was like, “I don't, I just, I couldn't understand how God could ever let that happen.” And he's like, “I don't have all the answers for you on why these policies are the way that they are currently with women and sealings and all of that.” But he's like, “I want you to know that I hear you. And I feel your pain. And I understand that it's hard to be in the situation that you're in.” Honestly, like, I just broke down. Because I was like, I just needed to hear that from a leader to say like, “We don't have all the answers yet. But revelation is coming,” you know, like, “The Church doesn't have to be perfect to be true.” And like, “If you have faith, I'm sure that more answers are coming.” And he said, “I've talked about it with our stake leaders. I've talked about it with our Area Presidency, and a lot of women are having this conversation, you know, and having these feelings.” I feel like I still have this pain, you know, that I still don't understand a lot of things. But I feel like that conversation just totally allowed me to put it back in a box in my head. And I just, that's all I wanted was just like, I need to be able to take these rose colored glasses off and be able to enjoy church without hearing this, without seeing this, and feel like I'm drowning in it. That major faith wobble really brought me closer to Christ. And luckily, this amazing bishop helped me through that. And like, gradually, my faith did improve. And I started to find the resources and find my vision changed. And I found like I truly found all of the beautiful things about the gospel that promote the equality of women and our beautiful role. And I read this article, it's called “I'm a Mormon Because I'm a Feminist,” and it's by Valerie Hudson, in that article really helped me as well, as well as a lot of different Conference talks in the scriptures, just to get through, like this wobble that I had.
And both of these experiences of coming back to the church, just really show me that this is the truth. And Satan tries to get us out by saying that there's more light elsewhere. And when people are leaving the church, and I feel like, if I could give a piece of advice to anyone who's listening to this podcast, who has a family member, or someone like that, who is leaving, or has left the church, it would be like, “That's between them and the Lord. You can't do anything to change it probably at this point, because that's their own journey that they're on.” But I feel like something you can do is identify, they're looking for light, and they're finding it in a place outside the church. And that is what our spirit wants is to find: light. And so if you are, if you have a frank conversation with them about, “I'm honoring your light and and the light that you're seeking,” because I feel like, you know, any major issue that people leave the church over, it's coming from a good place, like in their heart, right? They're not like, 99% of people who leave the church are not like, “I'm feeling lazy, I don't want to go to church, I want Sundays off and a 10% raise,” right?
ASHLY
Right.
BROOKE
That’s not what it is. Most of them have something deep that bothers them. And they see a problem with the church, or they see more light outside the church, say if your friend is struggling with like LGBTQ issues, or something like that. And they're seeing, I'm seeing this pain in this group, and I can't imagine a religion that would ostracize them in this way. They're seeking light, like, that's love, that they're feeling for their friend, who maybe is gay, feeling love and light
ASHLY
Right.
BROOKE
for that person. And that is a good feeling.
ASHLY
Mmhmm.
BROOKE
Like, that is not something that you should, you should be discouraging. Having that communication …
ASHLY
And by not like respecting them –
BROOKE
37:39
Exactly.
ASHLY
Yeah.
BROOKE
Like that's gonna push them away more, if you're like, you shouldn't care about your friend, the church is more important. That's not going to build any bridges. What's going to build bridges is, you know, “I see that you really care about your friend, and I honor that. I feel your pain. It would be really hard to have that experience, and deal with some of the things that we deal with in the church. I see that you see that you love them. And that's like coming from a very sincere place. And I understand that, that would be hard.” Because I feel like people just want to be heard. Like, when I had that issue with women's issues in the church, all I needed to hear was, “You're not alone, you're heard. We don't have the answers, but we're working on it.” You know, and that was enough for me, and maybe that's not enough for everyone. But to me, just someone saying, “I hear you, that is hard.” That was what I needed. “And if people are having these conversations with their friends, and they see you had a faith wobble over this issue? I understand that that is hard. That is a hard problem. And I hear you. If I had your same experience, I might be in the same place as you.” And with my family, I feel like that's very much what I've come to. They all decided to jump. But like, I haven't, but I haven't had the same experiences as they did. As a youth, I had really solid friends. And I hung out with my friends a lot and spent a lot of time in their homes. And I saw really healthy examples of faithful saints. And my older sisters didn't have that. And neither did their husbands. And neither do my parents. And, you know, especially my older sisters, they never saw what was healthy. And so if all you have is our own family of origin, and you have that as your example, I would absolutely leave that too. That is not healthy. That's experience. And so I feel like we've kept the communication pretty open about that. And there's not judgment now. I mean, there was after the wedding and the whole you know, “I say you're not invited but like I've just asked you to be honest” miscommunication that happened. But all of that. There was some hurt feelings and lots of different miscommunications happened there around the whole incident. And now we're like, in a really good place, like they have their own lives. And I respect that. They respect my choices. And I feel like it's just led me to, to see this is the life that I want. Their lives have gone completely different directions, completely different directions. Especially my younger siblings, now who weren't raised LDS, four of them aren't baptized, and the other two, like, didn't have experiences as teens in the church, and their lives are now going completely different directions than my cousins, or, you know, anyone else that you know, is in my ward family, that their youth are being raised in the church and going on missions, and, you know, getting married in the temple and doing that, like my family, that's totally different story. But I've seen that this is the path that I want for my life. And they've made their own choices. And there's a lot of respect there, that I feel like goes both ways. I've continued to just go to church, and I feel like I've been pretty vulnerable. I've had those things now. And I bear my testimony. And because I'm a pretty outspoken person. And I always share it, like, “You know what, I'm in a rut this week, and I prayed, and this is what I did to get me out of this rut,” or “I've been in a rut for a few months now.” You know, I don't share my testimony every week. But frequently– I was in the Relief Society presidency until a few weeks ago. And like, when I would teach, I would share, you know, hey, we all go through ups and downs in our testimony, you know, and that's okay. Like the perfect, we're not perfect, you can tell that the church, the church is alive, right? The church is. So living gospel, and like, if you take a houseplant, how can you tell that a plant is alive versus a fake? The alive one will have like a little brown spot, or like, it'll have a dead leaf or, you know, like, there's going to be imperfections in anything that's alive and growing and living. Like, it's just the fact of life. We're all human. We all make mistakes, and the church is alive. And you know, Jesus Christ has died so that we all have one chance, we only get one shot. But it's because we have a Savior, who died to make up for all of our imperfections. He died to make up for all of the imperfections in the church, and all of the imperfections in church doctrine, in all of the imperfections in whatever we're dealing with–with leaders who have broken our trust,
ASHLY
Yeah.
BROOKE
or anyone who's gotten in our way, or any kind of other misgiving we may have, He died to understand all of that pain. And He understands everything that we're going through. This church, I can truly testify that the most light can be found here. There's struggles, there's trials, definitely. 100%. You're gonna get that elsewhere too. If you're going to leave, where are you going to go? You know, are you going to go somewhere that's going to bring you more light? And are you sure about that? Because like my family, they were sure that they were leaving to somewhere that was better. And, you know, a promised land of more fireworks and closer Jesus, and they've completely left and none of ‘em are Christian, they're atheist, and they don't believe in, in even a higher power. If you're seriously considering leaving or seeking light elsewhere, just like is that going to, is that truly going to bring the most light? And are you sure it's perfect? You know, like, everything's gonna have imperfections. And we can't guarantee that the church is ever going to be perfect in our lifetime, or that we're ever going to have the results or the revelation that we want to answer every question that we have.
ASHLY
44:30
Right. Right. That is so, you are so right on with that. It's like, I don't know, I just haven't really thought of it that way– that if you're leaving, are you going somewhere that's going to be totally perfect? Like nowhere you can go is going to be perfect. And that is such a good point. And I also love that you were talking about how it's okay for us to talk about our struggles and stuff. Like I think that faith crisis and, I love that you said a faith wobble, that is like the best option. I think by talking about faith wobbles, it's almost like we're afraid because we don't want other people to think that we are lacking in faith or
BROOKE
Right.
ASHLY
We don't want to, we don't want to, go into the details of stuff because–
BROOKE
–of what we're struggling with! Right! Like when my bishop said, “You're not alone. I know that my own wife struggles with this and like other people struggle with …” I was like, “How have I never heard this before?” Like, I have never never heard of someone struggling with these issues, because everyone's just keeping it quiet. And we're all struggling. And I feel like I was asking for revelation to be handed down to me on a silver platter of like, “Please give me all the answers to my questions that I want, just right now.” And like, I remember when I was studying about those women's issues, like I was studying polygamy, and when I was studying about the pioneers, and like when they were asked to participate in in polygamy, and I was reading an account of one of the women who had to participate in polygamy. And she prayed and fasted for like, weeks to get this answer. I've prayed about it, you know, several times, and I fasted once or twice, but like, I'm just waiting for this light beam to open and give me the answer that I want. And that's not how revelation works, you know, not going to be, it's not going to appear to me.
ASHLY
No fireworks.
BROOKE
Yeah. And with polygamy, and these other questions that we have, it's not, there usually is not like, here's the answer handed to the silver platter. Like, that's usually not how it happens. You know, it usually comes through small and simple things. That's how it restored my faith. You know, when I had that initial conversation with my bishop, it put it back in a box for me, which was good. And then slowly, I was able to rebuild my faith, and step by step get an answer line upon line, instead of like, this big aha moment that I was looking for. And it never happened.
ASHLY
47:19
Yes. And I have to tell you, that it's so interesting that you talk about this because I had a really similar faith wobble when I was reading the Saints book, and I read something about polygamy in the Saints book that just totally threw me off. And my little sister said–she had just got home from her mission. So her textbook answer is, “Why don't you pray about it?” And so I was like, okay, you know what, I'm gonna pray about it. And I'm gonna ask God what He has to say about this. And I was talking to my dad about it. And my dad, essentially, he brought out one of my great, great, great grandmother's journals who practiced polygamy and her full description of when the manifesto came out. And they said, “Do not practice anymore.” And she was like, why would they tell us? We just changed our whole life, and now they're telling us not to do it anymore?” And then she describes her personal spiritual experience of when it was a spiritual confirmation, and she knew that it was right. And that it was, and so it's like, here we are in the year 2023, and we just like, we can't wrap our brains around polygamy. And I just think about the early saints and like, how they were actually the ones that had to do it. And the spiritual experiences they must have had confirming to them that this is what God had asked them to do. And anyway, what I was getting at is that I come, after reading that and talking to my dad, I saw the entire thing with new eyes, like, new eyes. I don't know all the details; maybe this happened because of this. Like, how the heck am I supposed to know? I'm looking at this with my 2023 eyes. I have no framework ...
BROOKE
49:19
Yeah! Absolutely. And your framework?
ASHLY
49:21
Yes. And it's funny, because what you just said about how you felt okay after that, that would not satisfy a critic online of the church. That would not satisfy them. They would say, “Oh.” But for you, you know that that was solved for you in your heart.
BROOKE
49:40
Yeah, and like, I'll be honest, like, it's still a question that I have, like, it still hasn't been answered. It's still like 2023 minds still are like, “What is going on with that?” We don't understand that. I had the faith to be like, “You know what, I'm gonna get an answer to that later.” And no one has asked me to have a testimony of it. Right? Like, when I go in to get my temple recommend interview, they don't ask, “Do you have a testimony of polygamy?” Like, that's not a question that they ask. So like, I'm just like, you know what, the questions that I need answered: is God real? If I pray about that, I'll get an answer to that. And I'll feel that in my heart, and all of these other questions– you know, when Nephi was bound, and he prayed, he said, “Release these bands that I may lead this people,” you know, he had something that he needed to accomplish. And I feel like that's a pattern that we can use when we're seeking revelation. Why am I seeking this revelation? What am I– what do I need to accomplish? Like, “Oh, I'm a mom, and I need to know how to teach my children. Heavenly Father, bless me with this revelation so that I know what to say.” And like in the answer, if you ask it in that way, you will get an answer. But nowhere does it say you're required to have a testimony of polygamy. Yeah, have a testimony that current sealing practices are the way that like, any question that I struggled with, I just ask myself, is this “I need to know,” or is it like, “I'm struggling? I'll get an answer later.” I just came to realize, you know what, we don't have all the answers. And then that's okay.
ASHLY
Yep.
BROOKE
You know, the church is growing, it's living, it's breathing. You know, it's a living organism. And it's going to have brown spots and failures.
ASHLY
Mmhmm.
BROOKE
And that's how you know, it's true, and that it's alive.
ASHLY
I love that.
BROOKE
And that Christ is alive in it.
ASHLY
51:46
I love that analogy so much. And I think that, I don't know, this whole thing has just been so good. Like, so, so many nuggets. I find it interesting, because every time we have an episode, somebody will message me and say, “That episode was just for me. That episode was just for me. I'm going through this. And it was exactly what that person just said.” And so I know that somebody out here is listening to this episode, thinking, “Oh, my gosh, I am so grateful that Brooke just shared her story because this is exactly what I needed to hear.” So.
BROOKE
52:23
Yeah, and I hope that they are listening, that they see that as one of the lines in the “line upon line, precept upon precept.” Like that is one of the lines, you know? It's not going to be a giant beam of light, a spotlight from heaven that answers a question. They're going to have small and tender mercies that are going to answer their questions. It's line upon line. And a lot of times we think, I hear other people hear this voice in their head or, like, read this scripture, and it just pops out at them or something. But like, sometimes it's just those small experiences that we have, like, someone might say something, or you might find a podcast, or you might, you know, hear a testimony that touches you and just reaffirms to you that Jesus loves you, and that He's thinking of you and that your question is not small to Him, and that He understands your pain. Other people have the same questions as you and you're not alone. And just all of those things. It's line upon line, it really is. And if they're praying for a big revelation, maybe they just need to realize that it'll just come slowly, because both of the times that I had, you know, faith crises or faith wobbles, like it wasn't, like it was– I slowly had to rebuild. Like, is in that low place of like, I still want to believe it's true. And I still feel like that I want to be here and I feel a spirit here. Like, but I need to rebuild slowly. And like, I hope that they just find a block in their brick wall, you know, by listening, and I'm hoping that I’d have someone, that I'm granted, but
ASHLY
If anyone, it was me.
BROOKE
54:14
I know that like when I was searching for answers to these questions, I was looking for other people who had struggled and overcome it.
ASHLY
54:20
Yeah. 100%. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you for being so open about your story, because that is not, it's not easy. And you're just amazing. So thank you so much.
BROOKE
54:35
Thank you for having me. It's truly been a joy. And I hope that I've said something that will cause somebody to pray and, and get a little more light and find that the light truly is in this church and Jesus Christ, in this gospel, in the temple, in all of the beautiful covenants and sealings and all the beautiful practices that we have in our faith, in our garments, in our teachings, in our Relief Society lessons, on tithing, on everything. I hope that they just see the beauty and the joy and the light that is in this church.
ASHLY
Love that. Thank you so much.
BROOKE
You're welcome. Thanks for having me.
ASHLY
Yes.
