CONTENT WARNING: This episode contains sensitive content that may be triggering or offensive to some audiences. Parental discretion is advised.
"I had never really completely lost my testimony. It was always back there, I would always say I didn't want it. I didn't want my testimony, it was so inconvenient. It frustrated me so bad that I couldn't shake it! I wanted to be able to do this and that and not feel guilty or like I was doing something wrong. It just wouldn't go away! But thank goodness that it didn't, The Savior was not going to give up on me."
Come Back Podcast
Transcription
ASHLY
00:00
I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. I know just a little bit about your story just from you know what you sent me in an email. But I feel like addiction recovery stories are just some of my favorite because it's so incredible to see how your life can be so full of dark and just awfulness, and then how it can completely transform and be so full of light. And so, you know, just I don't know. So the addiction recovery stories are just some of my favorite because of that. So I'm really excited to hear your story. And yeah, I would love if you want to just start at the beginning.
DREW
00:44
Well, thank you. Yeah, I'm happy to be here. It's cool for me, because I've shared my story many times, you know, but it's typically in front of an addict or alcoholic population, you know. It's very few times been for a mainly LDS audience. So, when I share my story, in other places, I don't get to talk about the things that I'm excited about as much, like the Atonement, the gospel, and so I'm excited for the opportunity to tell it in this way. And the true power behind my recovery. And I'm definitely going to talk about what happened and what went wrong and the bad stuff. But I think I want to spend more time focusing on the solution and the good things that happened afterwards. Because, you know, at least when I've shared my story, in other venues, it seems like most of the time I'm talking about, “Then I did this, and then this happened, and this happened.” And then like the last two minutes, you wrap up and you're like, “Oh, but then things got better. And anyway, here I am.
ASHLY
Yeah.
DREW
And I have a good job and all that but, you know, obviously, it's important for me to talk about the bad stuff. Because that's the reason I'm on this podcast, right? To share my story of how I came back.
DREW
And so I grew up in Northern California, a little town called Cottonwood. The nearest big town is Reading, which a lot of people haven't even heard of— it's about 120 miles north of Sacramento and very rural. More cows than people, you know. But I grew up in a good LDS home. I grew up doing all the things that young LDS folks do and, you know, went to the church dances. And anyway, I had a good upbringing. Good parents, good siblings, good friends, and so, you know, later that left me, when things did get bad, it left me a little puzzled, as I'm sure other people have felt before. Like, what went wrong? Like, I'm hearing all these people that I'm in treatment with talking about, they've been physically abused, or sexually abused, and all this horrible stuff. And I'm like, “What's my excuse? What happened?” Like, none of that happened to me. And we can go into the definition of trauma and talk about that all day, you know, and I learned some stuff later on about— trauma doesn't have to be some big crazy thing that happens.
ASHLY
03:42
I have to tell you, I relate to that so much, like, I just did another podcast, and she was asking me like, what was it that, you know, triggered you to go try drugs and stuff? And I'm like, “You know, that's a great question. I've been to a lot of therapy, and the only thing I can pinpoint is like, my dad worked a lot when I was a kid.” Like, everybody else seemed to have like a, you know, a lot of you know. Anyway, I can just relate to that. So much. So anyway, go on.
DREW
04:14
I think mine was just a little more nuanced, right? Like, it wasn't necessarily anything anyone did wrong to me. It was how I perceived things, you know, that were happening. For instance, my parents, some of the greatest people on the planet, never meant for certain things to affect me. They had things happen in their childhood that they wanted to protect me from. And that turned into really protecting me from everything, right? Like, to the point where by the time I was an adult, and I had a wife and I had a daughter, I didn't have any coping skills. I had no skills whatsoever. I didn't know how to do anything. I didn't know how to cope with things when things went wrong. I didn't know I was depressed, because mental health wasn't talked about not just in my home, but really anywhere, you know? At least not that I knew of. So I didn't know what the symptoms of depression really were other than just like, Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh. That's what I assumed it was. But it comes in so many forms, right? And from a young age, I learned to be a liar. You know, a message that was kind of sent to me by my parents, and again, not intentionally was essentially, like, if you're gonna be in the same amount of trouble, whether you tell the truth or lie, you know. So I'm like, well, I might as well take the gamble and lie, you know, and maybe I'll get away with it. But, I started viewing pornography, that's when the internet really took off, you know, and so that was my first introduction to shame. And that I was bad. And that I was a sinner,, and that people didn't really know me. People said a lot of good things about me, and I was this and I was that. But I knew the truth, and I felt the shame. And I felt this fear of talking about it, and telling anyone, because of what the consequences might be. And again, a lot of this is just my perception, most likely, I probably could have talked about this, and it would have gone just fine. You know, and someone would have helped me. But like I said, I ended up eventually married. I'm one of the guys that left on a mission and came home early, you know, and experienced that shame. I made it a big whole week in the MTC before I had a bit of a freakout and went home. And originally, the plan was for me to go back out, but I just never did. I never really found that motivation. And I never found the drive to kind of make some changes that I needed to, to be able to do that successfully. So there was that shame. And I look back on that, feeling that shame and feeling people judging me. But most likely, that wasn't even happening. When I really looked back and I’m honest with myself, I’m like, “Actually, everyone was really nice.” You know, that whole idea of me being judged, was just kind of, in my head. You know, no one said anything rude to me, or made me feel like it wasn't okay. That was just a belief that I had kind of formed over the years, that if you don't do things this way, then you should be ashamed, you know, and—
ASHLY
08:09
I'm so happy you brought that up, because I think that there's this narrative, especially with people who either have left the church or you know, that LDS people are just judgmental, and I think there is this narrative. But I found the same thing to be true, you know? Coming back, people loved me back into the church. And so I'm really happy you brought that up. Because I think it's really important for people to know if they're, you know, struggling with … Everybody has something and it's like that fear of judgment. That's what it is. It's like, we're fearing that people are judging us. And I don't think that— I mean, I'm sure people judge, but it's like, I don't know, I'm just really glad you brought that up, because I think that's a really important point.
DREW
09:01
Well, yeah, I mean, through all of our experiences, I'm sure that we see things through a different lens. You know, I've, ironically, the most judgment I've felt is by people outside of the church when I decided to go back to church. I didn't necessarily, I wouldn't say I lost relationships, but there's relationships that weren't the same when I made that decision, you know? And that probably comes from a place of pain on their end. And there's no judgment from me. There's just pain and I've experienced it before. Like I was saying, there's been a bit of a shift and how I view things. I love being really honest about my past and about everything that happened because it really disarms people and it, also I think, gives them permission to be vulnerable, you know, and talk about their own stuff. And I've really, I've seen changes within the church culture. And that was one of the biggest things that brought me back to the church when I was kind of kicking around the idea of what do I do here? You know, and I guess we'll get more into that later. But my best friend from growing up, you know, I was complaining about the culture and the shame and blah, blah, blah, but you know, and he just simply said, “Well, how does your not being there help? You know, if you've got a problem with the culture, then go help change it, you know?” And I'm like, “Oh, yeah, I guess that makes sense.” You know, thanks for taking away my excuse. So, anyway, I came home from my mission, after a week, and I ended up meeting a girl, which, you know, I had known her before from dances in the neighboring stake, and we got married in the temple. And we had a daughter, who's about to turn 14 next week. Two weeks. I want to say things went well for a while, but not really, I mean, did they go well, in the sense that I wasn't abusing drugs yet? Sure. But, you know, I was still undiagnosed, depressed, and anxiety, I still didn't have really any skills, or I didn't have any self confidence, self love, I still struggled with pornography, off and on, and just these things that kill your confidence and kill your spirit, you know. And we could, that's another thing we could talk about forever is pornography. And I can take the church completely out of it, and tell you about the damage that pornography does, you know, to your mind, and your calm, confidence and all that. So, I had no drive. I bounced around from job to job, I was always kind of this bright spirit in a lot of ways, you know. I always had this natural ability to connect with people. I just didn't really know how to harness that talent, and use it to my benefit. It was just, I knew how to make people laugh, you know, and I knew how to make people feel at ease, but I didn't know what to do with that. And so people always liked me. I was always almost kind of this golden boy in a way, you know, and I think that added a little bit to the stress. And then the shame, you know, of like, I feel like I let everyone down. Because this is what I perceived was expected of me. Which, again, probably wasn't. It's just perceptions, you know. So, by the time I'm 20, it was right after my daughter was born, about I think, 24 or 25. I started having these really bad headaches. I never actually got diagnosed with anything. There were MRIs, different things. But they were excruciating, really bad headaches, you know, and one day, I walked into this, just walk in clinic and told the doctor what was going on.
13:49
And, and his answer was, “Oh, you know what helps with that? Here, take this,” and he gives me a prescription for like, 60 painkillers. And I'm like, “Oh, okay.” I don't really know any better. That my experience with painkillers was getting my wisdom teeth out, you know, and it made me groggy. But anyway, you know, I took that first painkiller, and everything changed instantly, really. Not only did it take away my physical pain, but also all of a sudden I was a better husband, better father, a better employee, better friend, better son. More social, and I'm thinking, “Gosh, why doesn't everyone do this?” Like this is … this is amazing, you know? And, and I was just this really pretty naive, you know, and not understanding what it could potentially lead to. Because the doctor gave it to me, right? I hadn't ever really drank or done any drugs or anything.
DREW
14:50
Things got wild from there. Eventually I'll kind of skip a lot, but Jekyll and Hyde, right? I mean, it's night and day. What it does to your brain and your identity. I was a different person all of a sudden, and it magnified my character defects I already had, you know, my ability to lie and manipulate, and then zero integrity, you know, and those things were just magnified, and you know, your luck with doctors when you when you're a young LDS kid and you're naive, you don't know where to find a drug dealer, you know, especially in that part of the country. So luck with doctors runs out and I don't know, I got to figure out how to feed this habit. I can't go through withdrawals again. I did it a couple of different times, the first time I had no idea what was going on, I thought I just kept getting the flu. I didn't know what withdrawals were, and then I found out— “Oh, it's because I'm not taking that medicine.” And anyway, this kind of led to me stealing, you know, first from houses that I was already invited into. I’d make an excuse to go to the bathroom, taking stuff out of medicine, cabinets, stuff like that. Luck ran out there eventually, too. And then I started breaking into houses that I wasn't invited into. Right. And all of a sudden, I'm a burglar. And it's hard for me to comprehend now thinking back on it. Like, “Man, I did that? I can't believe I did that.” And I'm stealing from people that I know, you know? Like, I'm going to church and seeing who's there. And then making an excuse to leave and going and breaking into their homes to look for painkillers, you know, like, just insanity. Stuff I had no idea I was capable of. And long story short, eventually, you know, things blow up. I go to jail a couple of times. My parents, again, they mean no harm. But they didn't know, by bailing me out—and every time, that it was actually just kind of delaying the inevitable, you know? So I didn't learn my lesson. If nothing changes, nothing changes. So I just kept doing the same things. And anyway, by the, I think second or third time I was arrested, we all finally decided, you know, with my attorney, like I need to go to inpatient treatment. Because I had tried an outpatient treatment out there in California. Didn't work out. And so my attorney just happened to have a pamphlet for Renaissance Ranch here in Utah. And so I think it was Thanksgiving Day 2010, my dad and I drove out here or to Utah. I'm in Colorado at the moment, but checked into Renaissance Ranch the next day. One week later, I was discharged. Because turns out they don't want you to sneak drugs in with you. I mean, I gotta plead ignorance.
ASHLY
18:15
That does kind of hinder your chance of getting sober.
DREW
Yeah, yeah. Looking back on it, I learned some valuable lessons that I didn't actually apply till much later. You know, I learned that honesty does not mean no consequences. I remember one of the therapists telling me that because I had decided in group to get honest about the drugs that I had snuck in. But only of course, after my supply had ran out, you know. And they decided to discharge me. Well, they sent me to detox, but I took that as getting kicked out. And, you know, I'm telling them like, “Well, I was honest about it!” You know? And I was so ready to, like, have everyone pat me on the back for being honest and changing my ways, you know? And, he just said, “Well, honesty doesn't necessarily mean no consequences.” At the time, I was like, “Whatever.” You know.
18:51
But now, gosh, that's so true and so valuable. And you're gonna find out that a lot of the lessons that I learned, I learned and then years later, applied it. Which some of us do, I think. But I ended up leaving the detox AMA, wandered around the streets of Salt Lake for a couple days, I think slept on on the street one night, and this was like in December. Broke into some more houses, you know, ended up in a different treatment center that I was sneaking out of at night and going and breaking into houses to get pills, and just wild stuff and ended up in jail again. Got arrested from that treatment center. And this time, my parents were finally willing to put their foot down. I think they had learned some things and there was no bailing me out this time, and it wasn't for lack of trying, you know. I called everyone I can think of everyone for the first time ever in my life was holding boundaries with me, and
ASHLY
20:03
What was your wife thinking at this time? What was that relationship like?
DREW
20:10
I think she— so we're no longer married, but I think she just didn't know what to do. Nothing like this had ever come up in her life or my life, you know, and, and no one in her family or my family really knew what to do. And I can look back and, and feel resentful maybe about how she handled this or that, but really, like, she had no idea what to do, you know, and all of a sudden, I was gone. Her husband and the father of her daughter is gone. And doing this crazy stuff, you know, and it's not who she married, but she tried to be supportive at first, but I think I just gave her every reason to walk away, you know? And eventually enough was enough. So yeah, you know, I went to Utah County Jail. I attempted suicide in the jail. I was at rock bottom, obviously. I'm withdrawing from opiates, I'm withdrawing from my depression medication, you know, because they don't immediately give you some when you go to the jail, they have, there's a protocol. I'm in jail, you know, and all hope is lost, and, and I decided to try to die from a second story tier, to try to kill myself.
ASHLY
22:05
Oh my gosh.
DREW
Oh, yeah. And thank heavens, I wasn't successful. I did end up in the hospital for a few days. It's a brain bleed. And valuable lesson learned, again, applied later. But in that moment, you know, I did find some strength. My former father-in-law, I remember just kind of gave in. He was a man of few words. But my ex-wife and her parents and my daughter came out to Utah to visit me in the hospital when I was there. And he just, it wasn't exactly what he said, it was just that it was this guy that rarely speaks, saying it, and how firm he was saying it. And he was just saying, essentially, “You got to figure this out. I don't know what it's going to take, but you need to rely on the Lord and figure out what to do here.” And because I had jumped off this tier, they put me in what you know, they call in “movies and TV,” the hole which is just a single cell
22:58
for about 23 and a half hours a day. A little 8 by 10 or something like that. I don't know.
ASHLY
23:06
You got put in a turtle suit?
DREW
23:08
Yeah, I got put in the turtle suit, which, for those listening is a suicide gown. They call it the turtle suit because it's green. And it's just this big, thick horse blanket with with Velcro that they wrap around you and they don't give you underwear, socks, or sheets. Your blanket for sleeping is also one of those. It's not a good time, and I got to stay in it for two months.
ASHLY
Oh, my gosh, what would you do? What did you do? You know, 23 hours a day?
DREW
Well, I read a lot of books. A part of my story is the song “Be Still My Soul” has always been close to my heart. And it always touched me. It was one of the times I remember growing up feeling, where I feel the Spirit. That song, for whatever reason. And it was my grandfather's favorite song. And I remember pacing back and forth and myself for hours just humming that song, you know, and it's actually tattooed on me.
ASHLY
Oh, my gosh.
DREW
Yeah. And so I did that for four months. I read books, I paced back and forth humming. And I prayed and I did what my former father-in-law said, and I just found a way, and during that time, I was getting visits from a guy that owns Steps Recovery Center in Utah, which is actually where I work now.
ASHLY
24:38
How did you get connected with him?
DREW
24:41
Oh, that was actually kind of one of those crazy God moments and tender mercies. A woman that was in our ward in California while I was growing up, lived in Utah, and she had a son that died of a heroin overdose, I believe. And my mom knew that. She was in the LDS 12 Step program here, one of the missionaries for it. And so she called her asking her what she thought. And also, a missionary in that program that she knew was Mike Jorgensen, who used to own Steps Recovery Center. And so she called Mike, and Mike came and visited me at the jail and did it a few times. And anyway, after that, four months, I went to Steps Recovery Center, and I did 90 days of treatment. And a lot of good things happened during that 90 days. You know, and I work in treatment, I work for Steps Recovery, I help people get into treatment. And something I tell almost every single client is, if treatment is comfortable the entire time, then you're doing it wrong. And Steps taught me a lot of good stuff that I retained. But again, didn't use till much later. The problem for me in that time was that I didn't get uncomfortable. I was fresh out of jail. And I was, it was fun. You know, it was cool. Well, I'm out of jail, and there's good food and like they're taking us to watch movies sometimes. And I just did 90 days. And at the end of it, I thought I was awesome at rehab. Because it was easy. You know, that was you know, it wasn't as hard as I thought. But obviously, that was the problem, right? I didn't dig in, I didn't do any actual work, and at this point, I really hadn't invited the Lord and the Savior back into it, into the process. I mean, I did kind of when I was in jail, but you've heard of that a lot, right? People get really close to God when they're when they're in jail. And then kind of forget when they get out. And that's what I did. And so I did, you know, just based on momentum alone, and the fear of going back to jail or consequences. I stayed clean, I think for about 14 months, and the problem was that I didn't change anything really, other than I wasn't doing drugs anymore. I was still a liar. I was still a manipulator, I still didn't really have a lot of integrity. And so, shocker, I had the same result. And so eventually I relapsed. That's when stuff got really bad. You know, there's good and bad things about treatment. One of the bad things is that you can learn some stuff that you didn't know before, you know? Like, all of a sudden I knew about heroin. And I knew where to find it. And you know, and so I ended up on heroin. And within a day, I was an IV user. Oh, and within a week, I didn't have a home anymore. And I was getting kicked out of sober livings. I lived in my car for a while, running around with people that I met stealing from stores and pawning stuff and stealing from homes. And my probation officer learned about what I was up to, took me back to jail. And you're never going to believe this. But I ended up attempting suicide a second time by jumping off of a tier.
29:06
Yeah. Because I thought I had learned the do's and don'ts of it the last time I thought okay, and now I know now I know how to get this done. And it just was that perfect storm situation again, where I just, I could not bear the thought of what was coming, you know? The pain that I knew was on its way, and I attempted to jump from the tier again. Well, I didn't attempt, I did. Somehow I got less hurt this time. I did end up with 10 staples in my head back here but didn't have any brain bleeds or anything like that. And so they took me to the hospital and they stapled me back up and I'm still feeling really just anxious and I feel suicidal and I just wanted to die. I could not, I just couldn't wrap my head around going back to jail and going through this stuff again. And I noticed that the deputy that brought me had his firearm with them. And so I I tried to reach for it. I did reach for it—I grabbed hold of the handle and pulled for it. And my intention was to use it on myself, you know, but he pulled away, got it out of my hand. But it was enough to give me, you know, disarming a police officer charge and land me in the state prison. So all in all, I spent three and a half years in custody, you know, six or seven months in the county jail while my case was going through the system, and then and then another three years down in Denison Prison, Central Utah, back in solitary confinement after that happened.
ASHLY
30:53
Did they put you back in solitary confinement after that happened?
DREW
They did, although this time it was in the medical unit, because that's the only place in the jail that doesn't have a tier. But it's honestly worse than the hole in the medical unit. So yes, seven months, that time, by myself. Oh, so you got a little loony after a little while.
ASHLY
31:02
Well, I mean, for anybody listening, solitary confinement is like a six foot by four foot. I don't know how many feet it is, but you're literally in a closet, by yourself for 23 hours a day. And so to even like wrap your brain around what that is like, for how many months were you in there?
DREW
31:28
About seven, that time.
ASHLY
31:30
That is so, just, that is, just yeah.
DREW
31:36
Yeah, you know, they give you the little blue mat, you know, that's about four inches thick. That's what you sleep on, on the concrete. And it's, you get used to it in a weird way, you know. But it's not fun, that's for sure. So anyway, I spent those years in prison, my whole first year of incarceration between jail and my first few months in prison, I still really hadn't learned anything, you know. I was getting drugs here and there when I could, you know, there's certain drugs they allow in the jail that you can abuse, you know, just like medications that doctors prescribe, or stuff that gets snuck in one way or another, you know, and so, despite all the negative consequences, and I think I forgot to mention that, by this point, before I went to prison, my wife had filed for divorce, and we were divorced. But despite all this horrible stuff, I still, I wasn't done. I just, it wasn't enough for whatever reason, and it's funny how, when those things click, you just never know when it's going to be. And for me, I was in this program in the prison called the HOPE program, it's the behavioral modification program, and I was in a leadership role. And I’d broken a rule. And anyway, when you do that, in that program, they stick you with some sanctions, you know, and for me, it was for 60 days, I had to get up at 5:30 in the morning and clean, for three hours, I had to do five pages of journaling. they took away my TV that I had, my CD player, my visits, my yard time, my phone calls, you know, all this stuff. And for whatever reason, that's when it clicked, and enough was enough. I was so tired of me being the reason I wasn't happy, you know, and my behaviors, and so, I decided to go to work.
33:56
I used that 60 days to read some really good material, including the Book of Mormon. And some other really helpful books. And I went to work on changing my behaviors. And I did. Over the next two and a half years, I was I was determined to leave there a better person than I've ever been, and oddly enough, some of the days while I was in there were some of the happiest days of my life up until that point, because, as cliche as it sounds, I had kind of escaped the mental prison. Something weird happens when you start working on changing your behaviors like lying and no integrity— you start to kind of like yourself a little bit. And so that's where I was. I felt confident, and I liked myself because I discovered what my values were, and I started lining up my actions with my values. And things got better, and by the time I got out—I was released in July of 2016. And by the way, during that time, I still hadn't fully committed back to the Lord. You know, I did go through the repentance process in the jail. We had a ward, had a bishop. We had a disciplinary council. I was disfellowshipped. You know, and that was a really beautiful experience. And I was motivated, I think, in that moment, in that span of time, but then I kind of lost that momentum, eventually. It's not to give too many excuses, but there's not a lot of positivity in prison surrounding you. So as hard as it is to stay a faithful member of the church outside of prison, you know, with the amount of negativity, when you're there, it's even, it felt even harder to me, you know? And so I tried. And then I got out, and I hit the ground running. I was prepared more than most that get out of prison. And I had a plan for what I was going to do day one, week one, month one, year one, and I stuck to it. Of course, you know, unfortunately, none of that really had anything to do with the church, you know? I just wasn't there yet, I guess, and wasn't ready to dive in and commit. And it had gotten to the point where I had questions, and I had gripes about it, you know? And excuses. And so I just kind of focused on staying out of prison, and just being a good person. And sometimes that's okay. Honestly, I'm so glad that I had that time away. And I don't want to encourage people to take time away from the church, but I got to discover what my life was like without it. And do I like my life outside of the church and the gospel, in a relationship with the Savior? Obviously, the answer was no. Can you be happy outside of the church? Of course, people can have happy lives. But I'm more interested in the eternal perspective, right? I'm more interested in what my life is going to be like after this. And I'm willing to sacrifice some stuff that sounds really fun, and that I think would make me really happy. And willing to sacrifice that in this life for what comes next.
37:45
And I got a job. I paroled two Steps Recovery, Sober Living house in Orem, and immediately met some people to this day, are big parts of my life, and have been a big part of my success. Paul Walkenhorst is one of them. So I met him, and I got a job at a different treatment center at first. A friend of mine, do you know, Christian Smith, by chance?
ASHLY
38:15
I do.
DREW
And anyway, he works in the industry, works for Wasatch Recovery right now. But he had a treatment center at that time, and he gave me a job three days out of prison. And I was support staff, and within two weeks, they promoted me to case manager, and then Steps made me the Sober Living house manager. And I started to really see the fruits of my labors, and positive things happened because I was being honest and had integrity. And don't get me wrong, there's been plenty of times over the last seven years, when I just straight up haven’t. You know, I haven't had integrity, and I haven't been honest. And that's an important thing for everyone, I think to hear and it was important for me to understand. When I was changing those behaviors, I thought of this metaphor of playing the piano, when someone learns to play the piano, or really do anything, they start with the basics right? Piano, you start with “Mary Had a Little Lamb” and “Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star” and all that, you know, and then you build. You practice and you build and build, and no matter how much you practice some days, you're still gonna suck. But if you really want to play piano and be good at it, you don't give up because you sucked one day, you know? I used to do better the next day and so it was the same thing with gaining integrity. I started practicing these little moments, like in the prison, I was going to throw a candy wrapper on the ground. And then I had this thought, “Well, if other people were here, would I do that?” and the answer was no. So why am I going to do it when I'm by myself, you know? And so I started catching the little moments. And then I started building upon them, you know, and got better and better and better. And some days I still suck at integrity. I still make mistakes, but you know what? I still want to be a person of integrity, so I'm just gonna do better tomorrow. Give myself a break, and do better tomorrow. And so that's what I've done and been trying to do. And over the past seven years, my life has just gotten amazing, you know? And especially in the last about two years since I let the Savior back in. But, you know, I started out as a parolee at Steps Recovery, Sober Living, and now I'm the director of business development there, and I do really well, and I'm good at it. And it's the first time in my life where it was like that. I really felt like I was good at something, and I feel confident, and comfortable enough to say that I'm good at it. Because before, I felt like it was bragging, or whatever, you know, but I've built this life, and I've been able to break all these barriers. I assumed that felons had, you know, that I was told. I was told that I wouldn't be able to vote, I was told that I wouldn't be able to get a passport, I was told that I probably won't be able to buy a home, you know, and all these things that I've done. Since then, that I found out weren't true at all. I ended up buying my first home in 2020. And now we're gonna get to where the really good stuff started happening.
41:28
And that's, you know, enter the Savior. Had I built a pretty happy life without the church really in it? Yes, I had some happy stuff. I had some good stuff.
41:46
But there was a void, you know, and that was clear, and there was something missing. And I knew it. I had never really completely lost my testimony, it was always kind of back there. And I always say, I didn't want it. I didn't want my testimony, it was so inconvenient. It frustrated me so bad that I couldn't shake it, you know, because I want to be able to do this, and I want to be able to do that and not feel guilty for doing something wrong, you know, “Go away.” And it just wouldn't. And thanks goodness, right? The Savior was not going to give up on me. So I'm in my house in Saratoga Springs, 2020. You know, my first house that I bought, and I kicked around the idea for a few years. And not that I hadn't gone to church at all, during that time. In some mid-singles wards, and this and that, you know, but never really took it seriously. Never really dove in. I was still disfellowshipped. I'm driving down the road one day, and I see the missionaries on their bicycles. And I would see them all the time, right? But for whatever reason, this day, I just felt like I should stop and talk to them. And I had been feeling lately, like, maybe I should start, I should look at going back to church. I was really frustrated with dating. And you know, a lot of people have given me some advice, just, “You've got to just kind of let go and work on yourself.” But you know, if you're not living the values of the person that you're looking for, you're not going to attract her, you know. And so I had started to do that, kind of, you know, I deleted the stupid dating apps and all this stuff. And I started to focus on being the person that I was, the companion that I was looking for, living those values. And I was thinking, oh, man, maybe you know, I should introduce or I should bring the Lord into this on some level. And so I saw the missionaries, and I stopped and I talked to them and and I'm telling you, there's just no coincidences or accidents. The Lord knew the exact missionaries that I needed to talk to, you know, and shout out to Elder Chipman and Elder Kai, who I think are home by now, but they were great missionaries. And what I love about the missionaries today, because I don't ever remember missionaries talking much about their personal life or personal struggles when I was younger. And so they always seemed like these mythical figures or like, I put them up on this pedestal. Yeah, but these missionaries talked to me about their struggles. One of them had actually struggled with drugs for a while and he had a tiny little tattoo on his wrist. And you know, and the other one had struggled with some other stuff and, and they were just like these cool normal guys, and that's just exactly what I needed. That's exactly who I needed to talk to, and I needed to feel like I was safe, you know, to talk about my stuff. And without judgment, and I did. I felt safe, and that started this chain, and they started coming over every week and they were inviting me to church. And at first I wasn't, you know, I was still just kind of dipping a toe in. I wasn't ready, and I did it that way by design. I use the metaphor of going to the gym. People that haven't gone to the gym for a while, and they jump back in and try to bench press 250 pounds right off the bat, and just do all this crazy stuff, they're gonna get burnt out real quick, they're gonna get frustrated because they didn't meet their own expectations. And so I took that approach with the church too. It’s like, I'm not going to put pressure on myself. I'm going to dip my toe back in, and just ease my way back into this. And the elders were so respectful of that. And I was probably just a few weeks later. So I had … My current wife, I had met before just through just recovery stuff. And we hadn't seen each other in a couple of years, two/three years maybe, but she was someone that I always kind of remembered. And sometimes I would even look for her on Facebook, but she wasn't on there. And I think I even tried to text her at one point over the two or three year period. But she had changed her number. But one day, we just reconnected and she got back on Facebook. And we started talking and we hung out, and she was who I was looking for, you know. Like, I didn't I don't know what I expected. But I had grown accustomed to a certain style of dating, you know. I tried to kiss her on the first date, and she pulled away. And I'm like, oh, so that's awkward. But what was cool about it is it told me, okay, this girl is different. And this girl respects herself and has boundaries, and she holds them. And what she learned about me is when she pulled away, my response was very respectful and understanding. And so we both kind of learn these things about each other. That told us a little bit about each other. And it piqued both of our interests, and I'm thinking I just tanked this thing forever, you know, but it was the opposite. And a weird thing is my wife and I … I learned about the type of companion that I needed to look for, and how I should find her from a former therapist of mine. And so I always kind of had that in my mind, even if I wasn't using that knowledge. Years later, she would have the same therapist that would teach her the same thing. And so we ended up finding each other because of this therapist, you know, and needless to say, we invited him to our sealing a few weeks or a few months ago. And then I started learning other things about her, and I found motivation to explore a relationship with the Savior again, and the gospel, just by her simply stating her goals. She wasn't going to have a sexual relationship before marriage, she wanted to be married to a priesthood holder. And she didn't tell me, “You need to do these things or I'm not going to date you.” She just simply stated what her goals were, you know? And so that was enough for me to kind of, okay, you know, I don't want to do this for her. You know, I don't want to go back to church for anyone, you know, but it was enough for me to start kind of looking into it. And a little more seriously, right? And so we dated for four months before we got engaged, and we're not getting any younger. You know, we're both in our later 30s. And we just knew, you know? I know people say that a lot, but I just knew, and she knew, and we got married in June of 2021. And then we got sealed this past September, in the Draper temple. But, you know, we moved to Harriman when we got married and another one of those things, you know, the Lord put the right people there. You know, our current bishop was called right before we moved in, and he is just the exact bishop I needed. I still wasn't fully submerged into all this, I was still a little hesitant. Our neighbors were amazing. You know, they never once mentioned church, “You need to come to church,” they were just simply good neighbors. And they were Christlike. It intrigued me. And some counsel that my bishop gave me was to start over, you know? I had been meeting with those missionaries in Saratoga Springs, but he told me, because I was worried, is this my testimony that I'm feeling or is this just like, kind of remnants of my parents, you know? And I wanted to separate the two, I wanted to disconnect mine from my parents. And so he advised me to start over and take the missionary lessons. And that's what I did. We invited the missionaries in our home. They gave us the lessons and my testimony just started to grow, you know? And I started to develop this enthusiasm for the gospel again, and I started to really feel confident in my testimony. Because I remember when I first started going back, I started kind of getting into it, my testimony was so fragile. And my decision to go back was fragile. I remember, we had this family dinner, just siblings and stuff. And some of my siblings are active. Some aren’t, you know. And anyway, we got into a discussion that got kind of lively, and some of the stuff that I heard some of my family members saying,
51:48
as far as their beliefs in the church, and some information that they had found it, it shook me, you know, and it hurt that fragile testimony. And I was really, it was really hard for me. I remember being out in the parking lot afterwards, and my brother-in-law, he's married to my sister, said something very, very simple, you know, and those seem to be the things that touched me and resonate with me the most, just the simple things. And he said, you know, what? Yeah, all this stuff is hard to hear. But all I know, is that my life is better with the Lord in it, you know? And, and that, like, smacked me in the face, you know, and I got to thinking like, “Gosh, he's right.” Like, okay, say this stuff that they're bringing up about the past, you know, the history of the church and blah, blah blah, blah blah. If it's true, you just got to look at it so simply, you know? Is my life better with the Lord in it? Is my life better when I go to church? Yes, I feel closer to my wife, I feel closer to my daughter, my, the highlight of my week is going to church. I love going to the temple, I feel peaceful there. I feel good. You know, and so that's why, could I dive into these, like, CES letters and all this other stuff? Sure. But why? If it's not broken, don't fix it. I'm happy going to church and doing what I'm doing. So I don't need to disrupt that in any way. And that's what it's, you know, it's just so simple. You know, so and so offended me. I heard this general authority did this. Okay, but do you believe in the Book of Mormon? Do you have a testimony of the prophet? Do you love the Savior? Yes, yes, yes. Okay. So what does that matter? You know, it's really that simple. None of that stuff really matters. You know, what matters is that I have a relationship with my Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and I have a good home filled with love and the Spirit. And I'm sealed to my daughter, and I'm sealed to my wife. I think, you know, I've told people and they don't like hearing it, that people that have left the church and I don't mean that to be insulting, but there's all these people that have left and see themselves as this brave soul that dared to leave. But I think it's so much harder to be a member of the church because it doesn't fit in with the status quo. It doesn't fit in with the social norms. It's not convenient. Like I said, it's harmed relationships. For me, it would be so much easier to jump over to the great and spacious building and just have some fun, but it's supposed to be hard. That's why we're here, you know? And the reward is waiting for us.
ASHLY
55:04
I, it's interesting that you say that because I have noticed that, especially in the last several years, you and I work in the same space, in the addiction recovery space. And you and I, I think—I assume you too, we travel for work and go to different conferences and meet people from all over the country that are in the treatment space. And I found it so interesting that, you know, I have been, you know, I've talked to a lot of people and done a lot of things and been a lot of places, but it's interesting how when I tell people, I'm from Utah, they're like, “Oh, are you Mormon?” “So, are you a polygamist?” “Are you this?” and it's just like, people have this idea of what they think members of the church are. And it's interesting, because I've ran into that a lot more in the last like, three years or so that I, you know, go meet people from all over the country, and it kind of is just like, huh? Like, it just, it's true. It's like, we're kind of the weirdos,
DREW
Yeah.
ASHLY
but it is the easier way to just be like, yeah, like, just take a step back and exactly what you said, the great and spacious building, and people are pointing and laughing at those holding the the iron rod and they think it's not cool.
DREW
Mm-hmm.
ASHLY
And I just think, you know, it's the cool thing to leave the church, do whatever you want, like, the church is so restrictive people say, but you and I can both attest to the fact that we're freer now than we ever were when we were doing things our own way. You know, and …
DREW
56:58
Right. And I never want to take away from people's experience or difficult things that they encountered within the church. You know, for me, I realized years later, it was all a perception thing.
ASHLY
Right.
DREW
You know, and also, you know, say that really did happen, say so and so said this, and that hurt your feelings, and it was traumatic for you. What does that have to do with the truthfulness of the gospel?
ASHLY
Right.
DREW
You know? What does that have to do with whether or not the Book of Mormon is true, or that President Nelson is a prophet of God? For me nothing, you know, it's, it's just other. Just a person that like, said some stupid, you know, and that stuff like that just has no effect on me anymore. You know, I openly talk about everything at church. I stood up in stake conference a few months ago, talked about how I went to prison, I don't care.
ASHLY
I love that.
DREW
I think it's important to, like my friend said, you know, if you have a problem with the culture and go help change it, you know? One I've discovered there's not as many problems as I thought, or wanted to believe, because they were convenient. But there is some and has been some you know, and I think one of them is not talking about things, not talking about mental health or mistakes that were made, you know, if we can openly talk about mistakes. You don’t have to tell every private little thing, but then people can feel, I think that takes shame away.
ASHLY
Yeah.
DREW
Solve some of the shame problem. So, but I'm so grateful for the Atonement and for repentance. You know, like, I think that's why I can confidently talk about my past is because I know in the Lord's eyes I'm clean. Yep. So it doesn't matter. But I can still use it, I can still use it to maybe help others. And, you know, obviously, I don't want to forget because I don't want to repeat it. Anyway, you know, now I'm, I teach elders quorum and I, you know, we attend the temple pretty regularly and I've, I've dove back in with a different lens and experienced the gospel in a completely different way. And it's all focused on my relationship with the Savior. My testimony comes from nowhere else, except my relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. Does He speak through other people and through books and stuff? Sure. But if General Authority X makes a mistake, okay, well, I don't get my testimony from him. I get my testimony from my relationship with Heavenly Father and the Savior. So that's who I check in with when things are maybe a little wonky or unclear, you know, and I'm in a place of acceptance with a lot of things. Do I understand why we can't drink coffee, even though technically it's healthier than some of this other stuff we drink, no. But you know what I don't, it doesn't matter. I'll find out someday why the Lord wanted us to do that.
ASHLY
Mm-hmm.
DREW
It's okay. I don't, you know, that's what faith is. I don't need to know every little answer. A lot of things I just have to accept. I don't understand this, but I will someday. I have faith that I will someday. And there's a reason Heavenly Father has this in His plan.
ASHLY
1:00:30
Yeah. And I also think that, you know, the coffee thing, it's like, when you are experiencing the true joy that comes with living the gospel, it's like, you're so focused forward on progressing spiritually in the gospel that the coffee thing is like, it doesn't matter, you know
DREW
1:00:49
It doesn't. Like, I never think about it really.
ASHLY
1:00:53
Yeah. Right. And it's like, but that is something that people get hung up on, or they get, you know, other things too. And I think that one of the things that is so awesome about your story is that you chose. You chose to jump in and you chose to go back and to give the Savior a chance and see what He could do with your life. And it wasn't like, you didn't do it because you felt like everybody thought you should or you didn't do it, because this is just what we do. You made that choice. And with that, came the witness that yes, this is true. And this brings joy and happiness. And I just love that.
DREW
1:01:31
Yeah, I purposely didn't tell my parents for a long time that I was meeting with the missionaries and stuff. Because I wanted to make sure that I was doing this for me, that I wasn't seeking their approval or validation. And so I kind of kept them out of it for a while. And then I brought them in at one point when I knew like, “Okay, this is what I'm going to do,” you know, and now it's time to have this support of my parents. And so I'm grateful that I did it that way, just to take away any kind of doubt as to why I was doing it. And now I have zero doubt, you know, like, my testimony is mine. And finally, I'm really grateful to have it. It's not inconvenient anymore.
ASHLY
1:02:16
Right. I also think that it's so cool to see how the challenges that we go through with our testimonies, and like the experience you had with people talking about church history and stuff, it's like, we are faced with these things that we can make a choice to either in that moment, you can choose this path of like, well, “Yeah, I think they're right, let me go, like, dive down that rabbit hole of that information.” Or it's like, “You know, what, that does make me feel like I have some questions. But maybe I'll turn to the Lord and ask what He has, what He will, what revelation He'll give me on that subject.” And I think that those encounters that we have, and I mean, taking the time that you did, that everything you went through, it worked together to weave this beautiful place of where you are with your wife, sealed in the temple. And it's like, God can work all things to the good of those who love Him. And it's so incredible to see how he's done that in your life. So,
DREW
Thank you.
ASHLY
Everyone has their own path. And they have to experience what they go through in order to have their testimony be what God wants it to be.
DREW
1:03:36
Yeah, and I think the important thing to remember is that path and that journey does not end with death on this earth, you know, like, the people that don't accept it, in this life, I think there's going to be other opportunity, you know, so that's why we don't need to freak out and push people to go back to church, like let them have their experience and their journey. It's not going to happen in your timetable.
ASHLY
1:04:01
Exactly. Exactly. Yep. I love that. Well, Drew, we are on a mission to make keeping covenants cool again.
DREW
Yeah.
ASHLY
And you are on board with that, and I just, I love it. So thank you so much for taking the time to be on the podcast and thank you for, I know you're on your work trip right now. But thank you so much for taking the time out of your evening to meet with me.
DREW
1:04:31
Yeah, you bet. Thank you for having me.
ASHLY
Yeah.
