"There are going to be things that we don't know, whether it has to do with policies or church history, we may never have the answers. But that doesn't mean we need to throw away the things that we do know."
Come Back PodcastTranscription
ASHLY
00:14
Well, Hannah, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. When you sent me your email, I immediately sent it to Lauren. I just said, “Yes. This is such a good story.” I think that a lot of people can probably relate to your story and what you went through. And so, yeah, I'd love to just jump in and hear your story.
HANNAH
00:36
So I was raised in the church, in a super active family. And for the most part, it was really great in my childhood. I love the Young Women program. I love Primary and everything. And it was really good. There were a few things that I'll get to kind of later when I'm talking about my story of just things that thoughts and stuff that I had or things I went through. That made a lot more sense later in my life. I served a mission. I went to BYU, I got married in the temple. And in 2020, I had my first baby. You know, 2020 was a really crazy year, I think for everybody, with COVID. And there were just a lot of things going on with politics. And on top of that, I also was freshly postpartum. When my baby was about six months old, I hit a breaking point where I said, “I've got to talk to somebody.” I just felt so much turmoil in my mind. And I was having a really hard time feeling confident in any decision I made. And so I went to a therapist, to talk about some of the things that were bothering me. And then from there, it kind of progressively got worse. I eventually went to a treatment center. It was an outpatient treatment center. So I'd go every day. And then you know, come home after I would do therapy and stuff.
ASHLY
01:56
And you said you were diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder.
HANNAH
Yeah. So OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder. Once I went to treatment, I kind of got more specifics of what kind of OCD I have, there's a lot of different subtypes. And I suffer from a couple of them. But the one that I mainly want to focus on is called scrupulosity. It's basically obsessions surrounding religion and morality, like moral and religious issues. Some of the things when people have scrupulosity that they might suffer with, and me in particular, is like pathological guilt, obsessing over sins, and wondering if you're forgiven, or feeling like you have to do everything completely perfect. Just to make it clear, this is not just an issue in the LDS church, it is across every religion. They see it in every religion. And even people who aren't religious can have scrupulosity if they're obsessed with making the wrong or right choice. But I do think it is very prominent in the LDS religion. I live in Utah. So the treatment I went to was in Utah, so a lot of people were members of the church, and just kind of relating to each other on that front. These are some of the ways scrupulosity presents itself in me.
When I was a teenager, I would do something wrong or mess up or sin and then just excessively repent, and never felt like I was forgiven, ever. Or I would feel like I had to confess what I had done wrong to my parents or to the bishop over and over and over again. When I was really little, I even remember, there was a period of time where I was terrified of going to jail. And it made no sense. I was only six, but I was so afraid I was gonna go to jail because I was so afraid that I was going to do something wrong. My parents would say, “Just don't break the law. You're not gonna go to jail.” I was so afraid of just messing up or doing something wrong, or God being mad at me. And that's been a theme that I've seen over and over in my life. And on my mission it was bad too, of course, because there are so many rules. I read my journal now, and I just want to hug myself, and say, “You're doing the best you can, the Atonement is there for a reason.” That's one of the ways that scrupulosity has really affected me, having the guilt and ruminating on past sins, or just feeling like I have to do things exactly right.
I think the church culture is not perfect, obviously. In a way, it really perpetuates this black and white thinking that people will get stuck in, such as, “I'm either bad or I'm good,” right? Or everything is, you know, they say like, “Okay, if the Book of Mormon is true, then that means that all the prophets have been real prophets,” which is true, but sometimes that that can mess up your thinking, when maybe you don't agree with something or there's something in church history that's difficult for you to understand. And you think, “Okay, well, if the church is true, that means everything that a leader has ever done has to be 100% true.” And it's really hard to get out of this black and white thinking. And I think the church can sometimes perpetuate that. Well, not the church, but more like the culture. You know, with that way of thinking, my scrupulosity morphed from this feeling like I had to be perfect, to more of a faith crisis. And that's something that I still struggle with occasionally. I'll be triggered by something, and it all comes back. I have to take a step back and realize, “Okay, what do I really think? What do I really believe?” But I'll be really plagued with the thought of, “What do I actually think is true? And do I 100% know?” And, you know, during my testimony is hard because I want to be truthful. And I don't want to say, “I know without a shadow of a doubt,” because I don't. Sometimes that was kind of where I was at, but when I went into treatment, how scrupulosity was affecting me was this ongoing faith crisis that I just could not get over. I would pray, and I would study and I would get an answer, and it would make me feel better for a day, and then it was just back again, it's just a cycle. And that's really what OCD is.
So it's obsessive compulsive disorder. People who have OCD will have an obsession or a thought or something like that. And then they feel that they need to perform a compulsion to make them feel better about that. So most people think OCD is just being really orderly, or you wash your hands a lot and stuff like that. But that's just one type. I don't have that type. A lot of people who have OCD are not necessarily super clean or orderly. But you know, with an example like that, a trigger could be maybe you touched a doorknob. And so now you're thinking, “Oh, no, I have germs.” Then your compulsion would be to wash your hands five times. The same thing can happen with anything, right? With scrupulosity, the OCD surrounding religion, it might be, “I messed up, and I've sinned, I've got to pray for an hour now.” But the thing with OCD is, it doesn't matter how many times you do your compulsion, you never feel better. And so when it came to things surrounding faith crisis, I would maybe see something online, or someone would say something. And then my compulsions would be, I have to figure out every single piece of information there is, and I've got to read every comment on this Instagram post, or I have to make sure I'm reading every book that someone is recommending that helped them or led them astray. I feel like I have to have all the information, 100%, to make a good choice. I have to know 100%, without any doubt, but that's just not how life works. Life is full of uncertainties. Even within a gospel context, it's full of uncertainties. There are just things that we don't know whether that has to do with current policies, or church history, there are things we don't know and things that we'll never know. But that doesn't mean we have to throw away what we do know.
When I did my treatment, I did what's called exposure therapy. Basically, exposure therapy is when you will expose yourself to a trigger, and then try to not do your compulsion. So when it came to scrupulosity, and my religious obsessions, I would expose myself to a trigger. While I was in therapy, I would maybe read anti-Mormon material, or I would read a blog post about how the church has hurt somebody or how they've left the church, and then try to not do my compulsion, which would be to basically ruminate on that all the time, or ask the opinion of everyone in my life, what they think about that and try to get everyone's opinion of what I need to do moving forward. As you can imagine, it was incredibly painful. It was super hard, but it was also the best thing for my testimony, just realizing that
09:17
first of all, you can't know everything. And even if you did know everything, you're gonna have uncertainty in your life, but you can move forward with what you think is right. And that can be enough. The point of treatment wasn't necessarily for me to stay in the church or to leave the church. My therapist wasn't even LDS. It was just for me to get comfortable with uncertainty, basically. And I remember after treatment one day, I got home and I was just so confused. I wasn't suicidal, but I did want to die because I just wanted this burden of me trying to make this decision of “Do I stay, or do I leave?” to go away. And I remember I was just praying and writing in my journal and I just kind of had this realization of agency and that we can choose to believe. And one of my very favorite scriptures is in, I think it's Alma 32, where he's talking about how faith is like a seed. But basically, it just talks about how, even if all you have is a desire to believe, let that work in you. I think people can relate to this, whether they have OCD, or not. Sometimes all you have is the desire to believe. You maybe have these past experiences or this upbringing that was good, and then you're presented with other information about the church or about God or, or experiences that don't line up with that. You can take that piece of you from before and say, I desire to believe, I desire to be in this spot again. And that is enough. The scriptures tell us that is enough, you can take that and plant it, and that can grow into something more. And there's been so many times where I say, “Okay, I just have a desire to believe. I have a desire to feel peace about something.” And I can choose to move forward with that, and I can choose to believe, and then that takes hold, and, you know, kind of almost fake it till you make it. And that's been a huge thing that I've just learned throughout my treatment is just really understanding that we have agency for everything. I remember, a couple years ago, before I was diagnosed with OCD, always saying that faith comes really hard to me, it's really hard for me to just believe something. And I've realized that, actually, I have tremendous faith, because not knowing something, but choosing to believe or choosing to go forward anyways is the biggest show of faith you can have. The whole point of the veil is that we don't know, that we don't have this 100% certainty, that we were sent to this life, with the Spirit as our companion. And that can lead to guidance, but we don't know. We have to choose to believe that is truly what faith is all about. I think.
ASHLY
12:38
I think you're so right. And also it's like when you're presented with information or a hard question about the church or, you know, you have two choices, you can either seek, you can choose to turn to Heavenly Father for an answer and to resolve that. Or you can go down the path of, “I'm going to jump into this hard thing. And I'm going to make it, even dive into it,” and make it even more of a priority. And facing how it's how it's putting a block between you and your testimony.
HANNAH
Yeah.
ASHLY
And I think that if you turn to Heavenly Father, you pray about it, and you seek answers, and you use your agency to seek that path, it can actually become a really cool experience for you to find answers in a spiritual way. And something where you're when you encounter that information, or whatever, it can be really dark, and you're just like, “Oh my gosh, what if it's all not true?” You know, and then when you feel that way, it can feel like that's the end of the road, or like you're just in total darkness. But really, that can be just the beginning of a whole lot of light and answers in your life.
HANNAH
14:09
Yeah. I feel like Satan can counterfeit mostly any feeling, happiness or joy that can come from things that aren't true. But the one thing that I don't think you can counterfeit is peace. That was something that I learned with my treatment as well. Just because I would be presented with this information, and I'm thinking, “Okay, logically, this makes sense. But I just feel turmoil inside, I don't feel peace.” And then finally feeling like I do feel peace about making the decision to stay in the church or whatever decision I'm making. When I feel that peace, I know, “Okay, this is from God,” because I don't think Satan can counterfeit peace. I just think that's the one emotion that belongs solely to God, and Christ, and just that true peace. And that's something that I just have to remind myself over and over again. I went through this treatment and I'm so much better, I'm doing so much better, but I still have OCD and I will always have it. So I'm still faced with triggers all the time and things that will upset me and I might spiral for a day. But it's like, I'm presented with this choice over and over again. And I keep going back to making the same decision, which is, “Okay, I don't know A, B, and C, but I have had these experiences that I know are real and true and fruits of the Spirit and this peace that I have.” And so I feel like I have to keep coming back to making this decision over and over again. I'm always making the same decision. And I feel peace about that. I feel good about that. And when I do feel that turmoil or that darkness, kind of like what you were talking about, it doesn't last for long if I am able to call upon God and turn to what I believe what I choose to believe is a source of light and goodness, which is the gospel and Christ and the scriptures. So I never ended up actually leaving the church, but I've come close several times over the past decade, and just kind of always teetering on the edge. And you know, at this time when I am in a dark place, I mean, I've probably read everything–I've read the Letter to My Wife, I've read the CES Letter, I've seen all the things. And again, I have that compulsion or that need that I have to see and understand every little thing.
ASHLY
16:50
A Letter to My Wife, I've never heard of that before.
HANNAH
16:53
It’s this guy that basically wrote a letter to his wife of all the reasons why he decided to leave the church. I mean, it's very similar to the CES letter, it's the same kind of, you know, reasons that it talks about church history and Book of Mormon evidence, and whether or not that exists. I really feel a lot of empathy and understanding for people who leave the church because it's such, I mean, our agency, the first and one of the greatest gifts that, besides the atonement that God has given us is our agency and our ability to choose. I think we all are going to be presented with this choice over and over again in our life. And very easily, I could have made a different choice. I really empathize with people that do make a different choice, and I honor that, because that is God's plan is that we get to choose, and we have that agency, and we can choose if we're going to leave, or if we're going to stay, and if we're going to believe or if we're not going to, until after this life, we're not going to know everything 100%. But you know, we can in good faith, I'm going to choose to move forward with this, even if I don't have every piece of information.
18:14
There's something so gratifying about choosing– I was talking to my sister in law last week, and we were talking about that, how we're not just choosing blind faith. Going to church every Sunday and participating in these callings and stuff like this, we choose to participate and give of our time and give of our talents and to wear our garments, and we're actively choosing to do that, because it brings peace and joy to our lives. And I see all kinds of people close to me and on social media that are leaving the church, and I feel like I am so grateful to have these things that provide so much depth to my life and have answers. I choose to wear my garments because I love God and I want to, especially when it's hard, you know. Making that decision is really something that will fill your soul. It's not like we're just following this group of people that we were raised to follow.
ASHLY
Yeah. It is a choice. And I love how you're talking about agency, and it was the fruits of the Spirit, and how you can see the fruits of the Spirit. When I am doing these things that are good, I feel good. And I can see that very clearly. People who are strong in the gospel, I can see how their life is, and I want that in my life. I love that point about agency and just choosing to take that path. I'm curious to know, when you get into a spiral, how is it that you're able to get yourself out?
HANNAH
20:17
So again, with OCD, you'll have an obsession or a trigger. And then you want to perform compulsions. Through talking with a therapist, and also just coming to understand the disorder, I now know what my compulsions are. So the biggest thing is like, do not do your compulsion, which is so hard. Because when you have OCD, your mind is telling you, “Okay, just do it one more time, and then you're gonna feel better.” “Just just go and read the comments to this one thing, and you need to get all the information you can, and then you're gonna feel better.” And so the biggest thing is to just stop yourself from doing the thing that ultimately, you know, is toxic in your life.
ASHLY
21:02
When I was getting sober, it was like, “Just one more time, it's gonna make you feel better.”
HANNAH
Yeah, like, “You're finally gonna feel better.” Some people that I met in treatment, and I got to know their compulsions, and their scrupulosity might look different. So it might be, like I was saying, “Oh, I messed up. Now I need to pray for an hour.” “I just need to read my scriptures so perfectly this whole week, and then I'll feel better.” And sometimes, when you have OCD, I'm not advocating that you don't read your scriptures. But for some people, if they have OCD, the thing that they need to do is maybe to not read their scriptures, because they need to break that cycle that just keeps happening and happening and happening. And really what it's come down to, I realized, when I was obsessing over a past sin or something like that, I mean, I had the Atonement all wrong. I was not relying on the Savior. I was thinking I could save myself, I was thinking I could atone for myself. If I just punished myself enough. If I just confessed enough, if I felt as much guilt as possible, then I could save myself. But in reality, it’s the complete opposite. The Savior already suffered for our sins. And so when we repent, and we confess to Heavenly Father, and then we try to be better, we need to let that go. Because it's a mockery of the Atonement.
I think there's a lot of ways to make a mockery of the Atonement, one might be choosing to sin, and saying, “Oh, I'll repent later.” But it can be the other extreme too, where it's just like you do not accept the gift from the Savior. Just a couple of months ago, I had a day where I was spiraling. someone that I loved very much announced that they left the church and just, you know, it immediately puts me where I don't feel confident with my decisions. Like, “Am I supposed to be doing that?” and I was kind of just having a bad day. And I was at a family function. It was in October, we were carving pumpkins, and my parents were there and some other family, and I was talking to my dad about it. And I just started crying and was just crying so hard. And one of those times where you just can't get a hold of yourself, you just can't stop. And I went into the bathroom at my brother's house, and I was trying to calm myself down. And I just said a prayer. And I remember just praying and saying, “I feel so misunderstood, with this disorder, and I just feel like nobody understands,” trying to tell my dad and he's trying to empathize, but he doesn't understand and nobody understands. And just like, “Please give me this peace.” And I finally got a hold of myself. I was still feeling pretty bad on the inside. And I went out there, and I started carving pumpkins, and my oldest who was two at the time, and just randomly out of the blue, he just turns to me, and he said, “Mom, God helps the people, and He says, ‘Look at my hands.’” And I said, “Oh, God said that?” “No, Jesus. Jesus says, ‘Look at my hands.’” He's only two years old. And it was just this beautiful moment of, this reminder from my child of Someone does understand you, and it's Jesus, and Someone does understand and wants to help you. And it's Jesus. And He paid the price for your sins, and for all the heartaches and all the pain you're going to feel in life, including mental disease that I have, where I feel like nobody does understand, but He does. And it was just such a special moment. I'm sure you've maybe experienced that as well, but to be taught by your children, like, oh, wow. Two years old, and the Spirit prompted him and is using him to teach me. It was a really special moment. And those things happen over and over again. When I spiraled, there's always just, I'll put one foot forward and I'll say, “Okay, I'm super confused but I'm still going to choose to pray and I'm still going to choose to talk to you about this,” and Heavenly Father through the Spirit just reminds me over and over again, “Hey, you're doing the best you can, you're doing the right thing. Just keep moving forward. Someday it's going to make sense. Someday, and your questions are going to be answered, and it might be in the next life. But don't throw away what you do know to be true, or these positive experiences, just because there are some things that do not make any sense to you, that you need constant reassurance.”
ASHLY
25:43
Yes. I love that so much. What a beautiful testimony of choosing to believe and choosing to have faith. I think that so many times, when people leave the church, it is just so loud. It can be distracting for those that choose to stay. And it can cause a faith wobble, as in one of our previous episodes.
HANNAH
Yeah.
ASHLY
But we always have our agency, and we always have that choice to move forward. And I just love that you brought that up. And I mean, that story about having your child teach you is so beautiful.
HANNAH
Yeah.
ASHLY
So amazing. It's so cool when we have those experiences where we know that God is so aware of us.
HANNAH
26:40
Yeah. And I truly think that we're given trials and stuff to make us better, and to strengthen our faith, make us more empathetic and loving people towards others. I have a private Instagram account, where I posted that I had OCD. I mean, that was probably close to two years ago. And I just can't believe how many people have reached out and said, “Oh, I've been diagnosed with that, too.” And that's why I really wanted to share this. It's really vulnerable, and it's kind of embarrassing, but like I was saying before, I do think that it is prevalent in the church. It's more than just a faith crisis. It's maybe an obsession, but there's help for that.
ASHLY
Yeah.
HANNAH
And, you know, there's some people I've met who have chosen to leave the church because of their OCD. Because they felt like that was gonna give them peace. But again, it always comes back to choice, you can choose what you're going to do, and you can choose to stay. And I've been tremendously blessed for it honestly. I don't regret my decisions at all. And there have been times, you know, when I am spiraling, or I'm going through, you know, kind of an OCD phase, where you really question every decision you've ever made, and don't have a lot of confidence. But I can look at my life and see the blessings I have, you know, I have a beautiful family and I have a really good marriage. And I know that the good decisions I made in my life led to that. So I don't want to throw that away. I don't want to give, I don't want to deprive my children of those certain blessings that I have in my life because I was raised in the church, just because I am maybe confused about some things or don't understand.
ASHLY
28:32
And I want to say something really quick about your comment about being embarrassed. This is 1,000% a safe space. Almost everybody that's been on the podcast has shared something that could potentially feel embarrassing for them here. But the thing that I have realized is that every time somebody comes on the podcast and shares their story, we get so many messages that say, “Oh my gosh, that was just for me. That's exactly what I wanted to hear.” And so I think that the really cool thing is that this really challenging experience that you went through, you know, somebody's gonna hear this and it's going to be exactly what they need to hear. It'll be an answer to their prayers. So, you know, just thank you so much for coming on the podcast and for emailing me and being willing to be so open about your story with the whole world.
HANNAH
29:24
You're welcome. Thanks for having me on.
ASHLY
Yeah, thank you so much, Hannah.
