"There are going to be things that we don't know, whether it has to do with policies or church history, we may. never have the answers. But that doesn't mean we need to throw away the things that we do know."
Come Back PodcastTranscript
ASHLY
00:00
Well, Hannah, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. When you sent me your email, I like immediately sent it to Lauren. And I was just like, yes. Like, this is such a good story. I think that a lot of
people can probably relate to your story and what you went through. And so, yeah, I'd love to just jump in and hear your story.
HANNAH
00:22
So I was raised in the church, you know, like a super active family. And for the most part, it was really great in my childhood. I love the young woman program. I love primary and everything. And it was really good. There were like some a few things that like I'll get to kind of later when I'm talking about my story of just things that thoughts and stuff that I had or things I went through. That made a lot more sense later in my life. I served a mission. I went to BYU, I got married in the temple. And in 2020, I had my first baby. You know, 2020 was a really crazy year, I think, for everybody with COVID and there was just like a lot of things going on with politics and on top of that, I also was freshly postpartum. I just kind of when my baby was about six months old, I hit like a breaking point where I was just like, I've got to talk to somebody. I just felt so much turmoil in my mind. And I was having a really hard time feeling confident in like any decision I made. And so I went to a therapist and kind of talking about some of the things that were bothering me. And then from there, it kind of progressively got worse. And I eventually went to a treatment center. It was an outpatient treatment center. So, I'd go every day and then you know, come home after I would do therapy and stuff.
ASHLY
01:42
And you said you were diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder.
HANNAH
Yeah.
01:46
So OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder. Once I went to treatment, I kind of got more specifics of like, what kind of OCD I have, there's a lot of different subtypes. And I suffer from a couple of them. But the one that I mainly want to focus on is called scrupulosity. It's basically obsessions surrounding religion and morality, like moral and religious issues. Some of the things when people have scrupulosity that they might suffer with, and like me in particular, is like pathological guilt, obsessing over sins and like, wondering if you're forgiven or feeling like you have to do everything completely perfect. Just to like, make it clear, like this is not just an issue in the LDS church, it is across every religion like they see it in every religion. And even people who aren't religious can have scrupulosity. If they're obsessed with like making the wrong or right choice. But I do think it is very prominent in the LDS religion. I live in Utah so, the treatment I went to was in Utah. So, a lot of people were members of the church. And just kind of relating on that front. These are some of the ways scrupulosity like presents itself in me. So, I remember when I was a teenager, I would like do something wrong or mess up or sin and then just excessively repent, just excessively repent and never felt like I was forgiven, ever. Or like feeling like I have to confess what I've done wrong to my parents or to the bishop over and over and over again. When I was really little, I even remember, there was a period of time where I was terrified of going to jail. And like, it made no sense. I was like, six, but I was so afraid I was gonna go to jail because I was so afraid that I was going to do something wrong. And my parents were like, just don't break the law, like, you're not gonna go to jail. And I was so afraid of just messing up or doing something wrong, or God being mad at me. And that's like, been a theme that I've seen over and over in my life. And on my mission, it was of course, bad too, because there's so many rules. I read my journal now and just I want to hug myself like you're doing the best you can. The Atonement is there for a reason. That's one of the ways that scrupulosity has really affected me is just like, the guilt and ruminating on past sins, or just feeling like I have to do things exactly right. You know, I think the church culture is not perfect, obviously. And in a way, it really perpetuates this black and white thinking that people will get stuck in. That it's like, like, I'm either bad or I'm good, right? Or everything is, you know, they say like, okay, if the Book of Mormon is true, then that means that all the prophets have been real prophets and which is true, but sometimes that that can mess up your thinking. When maybe you don't agree with something or there's something in church history that's difficult for you to understand and you go, okay, well, if the church is true, that means everything that a leader has ever done has to be 100% true. And it's really hard to get out of this thinking of just black and white thinking and I think the church can sometimes perpetuate that, well, not the church, but more like the culture. You know, with that kind of way of thinking my scrupulosity morphed from this feeling like I had to be perfect, to more of like a faith crisis. And that's something that I still struggle with occasionally, like, I'll be triggered by something, and it like all comes back and I have to kind of take a step back and realize, okay, what do I really think? What do I really believe? But like, I'll be really plagued with the thought of what do I actually think is true? And do I 100% know. And, you know, like, bearing my testimony is hard because I want to be truthful and I don't want to say, I know without a surety of the doubt, because I don't sometimes. That was kind of where I was at, but when I went into treatment how scrupulosity was affecting me was this like, ongoing faith crisis that I just could not get over. Like, I would pray, and I would study and I would get an answer, and it would make me feel better for like, a day, and then it was just back again. It's just a cycle. And that's really what OCD is. It's obsessive-compulsive disorder. So, people who have OCD will have an obsession or like a thought or something like that and then they feel that they need to perform a compulsion to make them feel better about that. So, like most people think OCD is just, you're really orderly, or you wash your hands a lot and stuff like that. But that's just one type and, like, I don't even have that. A lot of people who have OCD don't even, they're not necessarily super clean or orderly. But you know, with an example like that a trigger could be maybe you touched a doorknob. And so now you're thinking, oh, no, like, I have germs. And so then your compulsion would be to wash your hands five times. So this same thing can happen with anything, right? And so with, you know, scrupulosity, the OCD surrounding religion, it might be, I messed up, and I've sinned, I've got to pray for an hour now. But the thing with OCD is, it doesn't matter how many times you do your compulsion, you never feel better. And so when it came to stuff surrounding faith crisis, I would maybe see something online, or someone would say something and then my compulsions would be, I have to figure out every single piece of information there is, and I've got to read every comment on this Instagram post. Or I have to make sure I'm reading every book that someone is recommending that helped them or led them astray. And because I have to have all the information, I have to be 100% to make a good choice. I have to know that 100% without any doubt. But that's just not how life works. Like life is full of uncertainties. And even within a gospel context, it's full of uncertainties. There are just things that we don't know. Whether that has to do with current policies, or like church history, there's things we don't know and things that we'll never know. But that doesn't mean we have to throw away what we do know. So, when I did my treatment, I did what's called exposure therapy. And so basically, what exposure therapy is, is they will, you will expose yourself to a trigger, and then try to not do your compulsion. So when it came to scrupulosity, and my religious obsessions, I would expose myself to a trigger. So while I was in therapy, I would like maybe read anti Mormon material, or I would like read a blog post about how the church has hurt somebody or how they've left the church, and then try to not do my compulsion. Which would be to basically ruminate on that all the time, or ask the opinion of everyone in my life what they think about that and try to get everyone's opinion of what I need to do moving forward. And so it was, I mean, as you can imagine, it was incredibly painful. It was super hard, but it was also like the best thing for my testimony, just realizing that
09:03
well, first of all, you can't know everything. And even if you did know everything, you can't, you're going to have uncertainty in your life that you can move forward with what you think is right, and you can move forward with that. And that can be enough. So with all of this, I remember at one point, I was just, you know, I had been doing this treatment. The point of treatment wasn't necessarily for me to stay in the church or to leave the church, it was just for me to, like my therapist wasn't even LDS and it was just for me to not, to get comfortable with uncertainty, basically. And I remember after treatment one day, I got home and I was just, I mean, just so confused. I wasn't suicidal, but I did want to die because I just wanted this burden of me trying to make this decision of do I stay or do I leave, to go away. And I remember I was just praying and writing in my journal and I just kind of had this realization of agency and that we can choose to believe. And one of my very favorite scriptures is in, I think it's Alma 32, where he's talking about faith is like a seed. But basically, it just talks about how, even if all you have is a desire to believe, let that work in you. I think people can relate to this, whether they have OCD, or not. Just that sometimes all you have is the desire to believe. You maybe have these like past experiences or this upbringing that was good and then you're presented with other information about the church or about God or, or experiences that don't line up with that, you can take that piece of you from before and say, I desire to believe, I desire to be in this spot again. And that is enough. Like the Scriptures tell us that is enough, you can take that and plant it. And that can grow into something more. And there's been so many times where I say, you know, okay, I just have a desire to believe I have a desire to feel peace about something. And I can choose to move forward with that, and I can choose to believe, and then that takes hold, and, you know, kind of almost fake it till you make it. And that's like, been a huge thing that I've just learned throughout my treatment is just really understanding that we have agency for everything. And I remember, you know, a couple years ago, before I was diagnosed with OCD, always saying, faith comes really hard to me, like, it's really hard for me to just believe something. And like, I've realized that, that actually, I have tremendous faith, because not knowing something, but choosing to believe or choosing to go forward anyways is like, the biggest show of faith you can have. The whole, that's the whole point of the veil, is that we don't know. That we don't have this 100% certainty that we were sent to this life, with the spirit as our companion. And that can lead and guide us, but we don't know. We have to choose to believe and that is truly what faith is all about. I think.
ASHLY
12:24
I think you're so right. And also it's like when you're presented with information or a hard question about the church or, you know, like, you have two choices, you can either seek, like, you can choose to like, turn to Heavenly Father for an answer and kind of like to resolve that. Or you can like, go down the path of like, I'm going to jump into this like hard thing. And I'm going to make it even, like, dive into it and make it even like more right in your face. And like how it's how it's putting a block between you and your testimony.
HANNAH
Yeah.
ASHLY
And I think that if you turn to Heavenly Father, you, you pray about it, and you seek answers, and you use your agency to seek that path, it can actually become, like, a really cool experience for you to find answers in a spiritual way. And something where you're when you encounter that information, or whatever, it can be, like really dark, and you're just like, oh my gosh, like, what if it's all not true? You know, and then when you feel that way, you can actually, it can feel like that's like, the end of the road or you're just like in total darkness. But really, that's can be just the beginning of like, a whole lot of light and answers in your life.
HANNAH
13:55
Yeah. And I mean, with that something, I feel like Satan can counterfeit mostly any feeling. Happiness or joy like that can come from things that aren't true. But the one thing that I don't think he can counterfeit is peace. That was something that I learned with my treatment as well just because, you know, like, I would be presented with this information. And I'm thinking, okay, logically, this makes sense. But like, I just feel turmoil inside like, I don't feel peace. And then finally feeling like I do feel peace about making the decision to stay in the church or whatever decision I'm making. When I feel that peace I know, okay, this is from God, because I think I don't think Satan can counterfeit peace. Like I just think that's the one emotion that belongs solely to God and Christ and just that true peace. And that's something that I just have to remind myself over and over again, because, you know, I went through this treatment and I'm so much better, I'm doing so much better, but it doesn't, I still have OCD and I will always have it. So I'm still faced with triggers all the time and things that will upset me and I might spiral for a day. But it's like, I'm presented with this choice over and over again. And I keep going back to making the same decision, which is, okay, I don't know, A, B, and C, but I have had these experiences that I know are real and true and fruits of the Spirit and this peace that I have. And so I feel like I have to keep coming back and making this decision over and over again, I’m always making the same decision. And I feel peace about that. And I feel good about that. And when I do feel that turmoil or that darkness, kind of like what you were talking about, it doesn't last for long if I am able to call upon God and turn to what I believe what I choose to believe is a source of light and goodness, which is the gospel and Christ and the Scriptures. And so I never ended up actually leaving the church, but I've come close several times over the past decade, and just kind of always like, teetering on the edge. And you know, like, at this time when, when I am in a dark place I've I mean, I've probably read everything, I've read The Letter to My Wife, I've read the CES Letter, like I've, I've seen all the things. And again, it goes back to that I have that compulsion or that need that I'm like I have to see and know and understand every little thing.
ASHLY
16:36
What is The Letter to My Wife? I've never heard of that before.
HANNAH
16:39
It’s this guy that basically wrote a letter to his wife of all the reasons why he decided to leave the church. I mean, it's very similar to the CES letter, it's the same kind of, you know, reasons that it talks about church history and like Book of Mormon evidence, and whether or not that exists, I really, I feel a lot of empathy and understanding for people who leave the church because it's such I mean, our agency, the first and one of the greatest gifts that, besides the atonement that God has given us is our agency and our decision to choose. And, you know, I think we all are going to be presented with this choice over and over again in our life. And very easily, I could have made a different choice. And so I really empathize with people that do make a different choice, because and I honor that, because that is I mean, that's God's plan is that we get to choose, and we have that agency, and we can choose, you know, if we're going to leave, or if we're going to stay, and if we're going to believe or if we're not going to. Until after this life, we're not going to know everything 100%. But you know, we can in good faith, I'm going to choose to move forward with this, even if I don't have every piece of information.
ASHLY
18:00
And there's something so gratifying about choosing, like, I was talking to my sister in law last week, and we were talking about that how shoot, like, we're not just like blind faith, like, you know, going to church every Sunday and like participating in these callings and stuff like this. Like we choose to participate and give of our time and give of our talents and to wear our garments and to like, we are actively choosing to do that, because we, it brings peace and joy to our lives. And like, I see all kinds of people close to me and on social media that are leaving the church. And it's like, I feel like, I am so grateful to have these things that provide like so much depth to my life and have answers and, like, I choose to wear my garments, and I choose to do that, because I love God and I want to like especially when it's hard, you know, making that decision is really something that will fill your soul and it's not like we're just doing it out of blind, like, following this group of people that we were raised to follow. Like, it is a choice. I love how you're talking about agency and like, like it was the fruits of the Spirit, like how, like, you can see the fruits of the Spirit, I can see that when I am doing these things that are good, I feel good. And I can see that you know, very clearly people who are, you know, strong in the Gospel, I can, like, I see how their life is and I you know, I want that in my life. And so I don't know I love that point about agency and just choosing to take that path. I'm curious to know like when you get into a spiral like, how is it that you're able to get yourself out?
HANNAH
20:03
So again, with OCD, it's, you'll have an obsession or a trigger and then you want to perform these compulsions. So, I mean through talking with a therapist, and also just coming to understand the disorder, I now know what my compulsions are. So, the biggest thing is like, do not do your compulsion, which is so hard. Because when you have OCD, your mind is telling you, okay, like, just do it one more time, and then you're going to feel better. Like just go and read the comments to this one thing, and you need to get all the information you can and then you're going to feel better. And so, the biggest thing is to just stop yourself from doing the thing that ultimately, you know, is toxic in your life. And so,
ASHLY
20:48
When I was getting sober, and it's like, just one more time, it's going to make you feel better.
HANNAH
20:52
Yeah, like, you're finally going to feel better. And, you know, like some people that I met in treatment, and I've gotten to know their compulsions, and like their scrupulosity might look different. So, it might be like, like I was saying, oh, I messed up, now I need to pray for an hour. I just need to read my scriptures like so perfectly this whole week, and then I'll feel better. And sometimes, if when you have OCD, I'm not advocating that you don't read your scriptures. But some people will, if they have OCD, the thing that they need to do is maybe to not read their scriptures, because they need to break that cycle that just keeps happening and happening and happening. And like really, what it's come down to, I realized, when I was obsessing over like a past sin or something like that I mean, I had the atonement all wrong. I was not relying on the Savior, all I was thinking I could save myself. I was thinking I could atone for myself, if I just punished myself enough. If I just confess enough. If I feel as much guilt as possible, like that I can save myself. But in reality, like, that's the complete opposite. The Savior already suffered for our sins. And so, when we repent, and we, you know, confess to Heavenly Father, and then we try to be better, like, we need to let that go. Because it's a mockery of the Atonement. If we're not, I think there's a lot of ways to make a mockery of the Atonement, one might be choosing to sin, and being like, oh, I'll repent later. But it can be the other extreme too where it's just like you do not accept the grace from the Savior. Just a couple of months ago, I was kind of, I had a day where I was spiraling. It was someone that I loved very much announced that they left the church and just, you know, it immediately puts me where I don't feel confident with my decisions, like, am I supposed to be doing that, and I was kind of just having a bad day. And I was at a family function, we were like, it was in October, we were carving pumpkins, and my parents were there and some other family, and I was talking to my dad about it. And I just started crying and was just crying so hard. And one of those times where you just can't get a hold of yourself, you just can't stop. And I went into the bathroom at my brother's house, and I was trying to, like, calm myself down. And I just said a prayer. And I remember just praying and saying, like, I feel so misunderstood, like with this disorder, and I just feel like nobody understands, like, trying to tell my dad and he's trying to empathize, but he doesn't understand and nobody understands. And just like, please give me this piece. And I finally get a hold of myself. And I, you know, I'm still feeling pretty bad on the inside. And I go out there, and I start carving pumpkins, and my oldest who was two at the time, and just randomly out of the blue, he just turns to me, and he's like, “Mom, God helps the people and, and he says, Look at my hands”. And I said, “oh, God said that?” he said, “No, Jesus. Jesus says, Look at my hands”. And it was just, I mean, you know, he's only two years old. And it was just this beautiful moment of, like, this reminder from my child of someone does understand you, and it's Jesus, and someone does understand and wants to help you. And it's Jesus. And he, he paid the price for your sins, and for all the heartaches and all the pain you're going to feel in life, including mental disease that I have. That where I feel like nobody does understand, but he does. And it was just such a special moment. I'm sure you've maybe experienced that as well, but to be taught by your children, like, oh, wow, you know, two years old, and the Spirit prompted him and is using him to teach me. It was like a really special moment. And those things happen over and over again when I spiral. Like there's always just, I'll put one foot forward and I'll say, okay, I'm super confused that I'm still going to choose to pray and I'm still going to choose to talk to you about this. and Heavenly Father through the Spirit just reminds me over and over again like, hey, you're doing the best you can, you're doing the right thing, just keep moving forward. Someday it's going to make sense. Someday your questions are going to be answered, and it might be in the next life. But don't throw away what you do know to be true, or these positive experiences, just because there are some things that do not make any sense to you, that you need constant reassurance with.
ASHLY
25:29
yes. I love that so much. What a beautiful testimony of choosing to believe and choosing to have faith. I think that so many times, it's like, when people leaving the church is just so loud, and you know, it can be like, distracting for, for those that choose to stay. And it's like, it can be it can cause like a faith wobble, as someone from one of our previous episodes called it. But we always have our agency, and we always have that choice to move forward. And I just love that you brought that up. And I mean, that story about, you know, having your child teach you is so beautiful, so amazing. It's so cool when we have those experiences where we know that God is so aware of us.
HANNAH
26:16
Yeah. And I truly think that, you know, we're given trials and stuff to make us better, and to strengthen our faith, make us more empathetic and loving people towards others. And I have a private Instagram account, but I posted, you know that I had OCD. I mean, that was probably close to two years ago. And I just can't believe how many people have reached out and been like, oh, I've been diagnosed with that, too. And just, and that's why I really wanted to share this, is it's really vulnerable. And it's kind of embarrassing, but like I was saying before, I do think that it is prevalent in the church. People have, you know, it's more than just a faith crisis, it's maybe like an obsession, that there's help for that. Yeah. And, you know, there's some people I've met who have chosen to leave the church because of their OCD because they felt like that was going to give them peace. But again, it always comes back to a choice. You can choose what you're going to do, and you can choose to stay. And I've been tremendously blessed for it honestly, like I, I don't regret my decisions at all. And there have been times, you know, when I am spiraling, or I'm going through, you know, kind of a OCD phase, where you really question every decision you've ever made, and don't have a lot of confidence. But I can look at my life and see the blessings I have, you know, I have a beautiful family and I have a really good marriage. And I know that the good decisions I made in my life led to that. So I don't want to throw that away, or I don't want to give, I don't want to deprive my children of those certain blessings that I have in my life because I was raised in the church just because I maybe am confused about some things or don't understand.
ASHLY
28:18
And I want to say something really quick about your comment about being embarrassed. This is 1,000% a safe space, like, almost everybody that's been on the podcast has shared something that could potentially feel embarrassing for the whole world to hear. But the thing that I have realized is that every time somebody comes on the podcast and shares their story, we get so many messages that are like, oh my gosh, that was just for me. That's exactly what I wanted to hear. And so, I think that the really cool thing is that this really challenging experience that you went through, you know, somebody's going to hear this and it's going to be exactly what they need to hear. It'll be an answer to their prayers. So, you know, just thank you so much for coming on the podcast and for emailing me and being willing to be so open about your story with the whole world.
HANNAH
29:10
You're welcome. Thanks for having me on.
ASHLY
29:13
Yeah, thank you so much, Hannah.
