"If this is a paragraph from your book of possibilities then the only way you get to read the rest of the book is if you record the feelings that you have when you seek revelation from it. So you should start asking questions."
Come Back Podcast
Transcript
ASHLY
00:14
Wayne, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. When you emailed me, I just thought what you shared was so profound, and I forwarded it to Lauren right away. And she's like, “Oh my gosh, we’ve got to have him on.” And so I'm excited to hear your story. But I'm also excited to just hear your perspective. I'd love to hear a little bit about you. I know you're a patriarch, right?
WAYNE
Yes. Yes.
ASHLY
Yeah. So I would love to hear a little bit about you, like your background, a little bit about your family.
00:44
Okay. Well, we actually live in Oklahoma. But we lived in the Four Corner states. And I grew up in Mancos, Colorado, which is the southwestern corner around Durango. My family, we're all pioneers. So we had some family that was in the Willie Hancock company. We had some family that went through the Hole in the Rock, to settle the San Juan area of Utah in southwestern Colorado. And so that's always a source of pride for me. But that doesn't always mean that the church is really important to you all throughout your life. And that's kind of what happened to me. And I don't think my story is a whole lot different than a lot of the young people, a lot of people in the church, we all have those, Gethsemane moments where we have to find out if what we really say we believe is true. And so I guess my comeback kind of deals with that–being like a typical teenager. I grew up in the 60s and 70s. I was born in 1960. During that time, there was a lot going on that completely different thought pattern, I think, than what we had had earlier in the United States. People wanted to be more free, they wanted to make their own choices. They wanted to live how they wanted to live, they didn't want anybody to tell them and they especially didn't want to listen to tradition. We had to be different. So that's what happened to me. I received my patriarchal blessing when I was 15. And I was very excited about it. But by the time I hit 16, being a member of the church was no longer cool with my peers. There was not a lot of members in our school, but our school was really small. So I had a lot of relatives there. But we all were kind of the same. We went to church. But as we hit our teenage years, we didn't feel like it was important for us to stay strong. Though, we were active the whole time, we attended every week, we went to all of our youth activities. I shouldn't speak for all my cousins, but I had decided that I just didn't want to be a member of the church anymore. I didn't want to have to live according to those rules. But I didn't want to disappoint my parents. And so I continued to go. Then after I graduated from high school, I took a job in Arizona. And I didn't go to church at all when I was there. Kind of backtrack just a little bit too, when I was 14– I went on a hunting trip up in the mountains of Colorado in the San Juan National Forest. And we took our horses out. And I went out hunting in the morning. When I came back, my horses were gone. And sat on a national forest is 1.8 million acres. And I didn't know where to go to find those horses. And I started looking and looking and I could not find them. So I knelt down in the middle of the forest and I said, “Heavenly Father, I have to find these horses, please help me.” I got up and I didn't walk 10 or 15 steps and then came across their tracks. So I followed the tracks until I finally found them. I told the Lord, I said, “If you'll help me find my horses, I promise I'll go on a mission.” Well, you shouldn't make those kinds of promises to the Lord if you don't want to keep them. And when I hit 16 at that time in the church, you could go on a youth mission. And so I told the Lord, well, this is what I'll do. I'll go on a youth mission. And it was just for the summer. And that should … well He didn't let me do that. So at 19 I decided I wasn't going to go and I tried to forget the promise that I made to the Lord. Well, I came home for the weekend, and my mom … I was well into my 19th year. And my mom said, “So when are you going to go on a mission?” And my mom and dad struggled financially. And I was being a smart aleck and I said, “Well, when you decide to pay for it, I'll go.” Bless her heart, she said, “Get your papers ready.” And I didn't want to hurt her feelings, so I did. But I still didn't believe that the church was true. So the next best thing was for me to read the Book of Mormon, because I didn't believe that it was true. And I knew that when I did that, that would be my out that I could say I just, I don't believe it. So I read the Book of Mormon. And I had these little promptings as I read, something felt familiar, it just felt right. But at the end, I read Moroni's promise, and I knelt down and I prayed. And it was true. I just got this powerful witness that it was true. I knew very little about the church, but then I was committed to be a missionary. I went out on my mission, and when I got there, it was at the time when the Tanners and Ed Decker were producing a lot of anti-Mormon literature. And I was working in an area where one of the pastors there, he cared about us, I know that he did, he didn't do it out of spite. He didn't want to hurt us. But he said to his congregation, when these Mormon boys come and knock on your door, you invite them in, and then I’ll come with this anti-Mormon literature, and we’ll change them. And so we got so many appointments. We just thought everything was wonderful. Well at every appointment, he was there. And he started hitting me with all kinds of things that I never knew anything about. Polygamy–I wasn't worried because I was from a polygamous family, and I'd heard about it early. But all the other things I just didn't have an answer for. But every time I left, and every time when I was in his presses, I just felt the spirit of contention. When I got my answer to my prayer, it was peace. And so all I had to do every time was remember what I had once felt. And in the sacrament prayers, that's what we're told, right? In both sacrament prayers, “Oh God, the Eternal Father, we ask you in the name of thy son, Jesus Christ to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it.” And then they tell us that we may … to remember. And it does it in both. Remembering is one of the most important things that we can do. Finally, I bore my testimony to him. And I said, “I can't answer any of these questions. But one thing I can promise you is that if you'll study the Book of Mormon, like I did, and pray like I did, that the Lord will answer your prayer. You'll feel the same peace that I felt.” And he just couldn't, he couldn't say anything. And we left as friends. And I think that was the most powerful thing. And at that point, I was converted. I knew that this was the church of Jesus Christ. I think a lot of the members of the church go through that very same experience: we have these troubled times, we may not leave completely, but we just don't know. So now let's fast forward a little bit. I came home off my mission, I met the love of my life. We've been married 41 years. And we have four children. We have nine grandchildren. And they are amazing. I just can't believe how much the Lord has blessed me. But I'd love to maybe share some of the things that helped me as I tried to help other people understand some of the questions that we have about maybe church history.
08:41
And I'll do that first by talking about giving a patriarchal blessing and what it's like. You would think that, because the blessing is from the Lord, all I have to do is lay my hands on the person's head. And then into my mind comes a patriarchal blessing, and I just read it off. Well, that's not at all how it is. And that's not how revelation works for anyone. What happens is, the Lord gives, He places a word or a phrase in my mind, and it feels very peaceful. If feels calm, it's pure light that flows into my mind. The problem is that we take this pure light, and as mortals we have to interpret that and put it into a word format, which is never perfect. But we try, then I'll get another prompting or another word or phrase, and I'll do my best to describe that word or phrase. And finally, at the end, nothing else will come to my mind. And I can close the blessing. But I'm not sure if this is what happens for all patriarchs or not, but I think it's probably similar. So then what happens is we give that to the recipient, and they have a choice as well. So, the patriarchal blessing, just like the scriptures, or General Conference talks, or good discussions, they all come under the direction of the Spirit, so it comes as pure light. But in order for you to understand the pure light that came into the patriarch or the speaker's mind, you have to then ask Heavenly Father, “What do I need to know about what was spoken?” And then when you ask that question, he sends that pure light into your mind.
10:41
See, a patriarchal blessing or General Conference talks, or the scriptures, they're all just an invitation to ask for revelation. And if we're not asking for revelation, we never get to pure light, when it was intended, with the words that were written down. Isn’t that cool? And so I think when people fall away from the church, we have gotten to the point where we stop asking. And so I think that that's probably the most important thing that we can do is continue to ask questions.
ASHLY
11:15
I think it's interesting, because a lot of people that leave the church, it starts with questions about church history. And it's funny that you say you stop asking questions, because I totally agree that it's like, I think people stop asking the Lord those questions, and they start going to other sources. It's like, they're, the questions don't stop, but the source of answers is turned to something else. And I love the way that you describe that pure light and how you said, I believe in your email, you mentioned that you are pretty much like translating these feelings of pure light into word form. And I think, you know, we had brother Halverson on the podcast, and he talks similarly, about how Joseph Smith, you know, he's translating the Book of Mormon and how he's taking inspiration. And he's taking these, you know, he's translating it into something that is human words. And, I mean, that's kind of what it reminded me of is, you know, you're giving people patriarchal blessings, and you're taking pure light and translating that into word form.
WAYNE
12:41
I just listened to, or watched Elder and Sister Hafen, and they talked about Neal A. Maxwell. Elder Maxwell gave a talk. Let me see if I can find it here real quick. It was way back in 1991, I think it was. It was called, “Lest Ye Be Wearied and Faint in Your Minds.” And in there, he talks about faith. And he says, “Faith also includes trust in God's timing. For he has said, ‘All things must come to pass in their time.’ Ironically, some who acknowledge God are tried by His timing globally and personally.” And I think that “faith likewise includes faith in God's developmental purposes. ‘For the Lord seeth fit to chasten his people. Yeah, He tried their patience, and their faith.’” And I thought it was interesting that He said he tries their patience and their faith, that patience was first. “Still, some of us have trouble when God's tutoring is applied to us. We plead for exemption more than we plead for sanctification.” When we have family members that are wandering, the thing that we pray for, is that they'll forget where they're going and come right back. We have four children, and two of them are active and their families are active, and two of them are not. But I don't worry so much, because I still believe that my two that are not coming are still searching for truth. And they're good people. They're just searching for truth in a different place than I would like them to search. And, and I believe that the Lord will lead them back. So with my children, I just, I just keep praying for them. I pray that angels seen and unseen will help them and I pray that I'll be one of those angels that can help from time to time, but I don't want to get in their way.
ASHLY
Mmhmm. Yep.
WAYNE
And I think that happened to you didn't it?
ASHLY
Yeah.
WAYNE
With your …
ASHLY
14:57
Yeah, so I think it's a common theme with a lot of stories where people, it's like they have somebody in their life that they look up to and that becomes kind of this example to them and they want, the people want that light, and I've seen that quite a bit and different stories of coming back. And I'm curious to know, it sounds like you obviously have a lot of experience with just all kinds of things. But what advice would you have for somebody that encounters anti-Mormon stuff, particularly on the internet? Or maybe the CES Letter, they dove into the CES Letter? Or, like, what advice would you have for somebody that is coming back from that? Or they feel stuck in, you know, “how can the church be true?” What advice would you have?
15:54
I would say, if you're gonna study, and I've read most of the CES Letter, and it doesn't bother me at all, because you have to, if you're going to be looking at those kinds of things, you have to decide, you have to ask yourself, “Why am I looking? Am I looking to find truth? Or am I looking for a way out?” Because if we're looking for a way out, it doesn't matter, we're going to find a way out. But if we really want to know, it's okay to have questions. But you have to give at least equal time to the Lord, as you do to the CES Letter or whatever it is. And you have to ask questions, you have to ask for that pure light. And the “Father, I really want to know. And these things bother me.” And there’ll probably be a lot of things you can learn that will help you. I think those who really want to know, will find things to where they don't always get the answers, but they get small little bits and pieces that are a prompting to look somewhere else. And I encourage people, I don't encourage you to read the CES Letter. But I do encourage you to ask questions. And the other thing that I would recommend people do is that they go to people that they really trust, and that they know that will give them honest answers. And sometimes an honest answer is “I don't know.”
ASHLY
Yeah.
WAYNE
And that's, that's an okay answer to but then ask each other, “Can we search together?,” because when we start searching alone, a lot of times, it's easy to get led down the wrong path. So if two of us work together, and one of us is really strong, we're going to help, we're going to find the answers or at least we're going to feel promptings that will lead us to the right answers or help us feel confident that where we're at is an okay place to be.
ASHLY
18:03
Mmhmm. Yep. And I love … going along with the quote from Neal A. Maxwell, was that we want to, it's like something along the lines of we want to avoid the pain instead of gain the sanctification. And it's so spot on, even with people we love that leave. It's like, you know, maybe they're going down their path that leads to sanctification and we want to intervene and say, no, don't like … but their path may just be a unique path that, you know, leads there and we we always want to intervene, but it's just not our place to do that. And so if we have patience, and if we are able to know that if we can stand, it is kind of a beacon of light for them, I think. And instead of like you said pushing or pulling. I think that it makes all the difference.
WAYNE
19:05
It does. You know, when Elder Maxwell was talking about sanctification, reminded me of a talk that Elder D. Todd Christofferson gave in 2011, it was October of 2011. He talks about sanctification and justification. And he says, “We know that justification or forgiveness of sins, through the grace of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, is just and true. And we know also that sanctification, or purification from the effects of sin, through the grace of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, is just a true.” And I think that that's one of the things that we forget, is justification is forgiveness of sins, and we're always asking for that. But when we've wandered, the effects of sin is what really hurts us. It's the struggles that we had. And so we want, we need to pray for sanctification, that the effects of sin will be taken away from us. And I think that the most powerful part of the Atonement is the sanctification part. Especially for those who wander.
ASHLY
20:13
Yep, so true and, and Bruce and Marie really talk about that in the Faith Is Not Blind book and I just love that. And it's, I believe that they say, you know, after some there's simplicity and then complexity and then simplicity beyond complexity, and what's after that, and it's sanctification. We just think that, you know, the sanctification is what's at the end. What is the, like what happens after we've learned the lessons, and we've come to peace with it all.
WAYNE
20:46
Yeah, I agree. One of the things that I battled with for the last, well since 2014 is I have a neurological condition called trigeminal neuralgia, some people call it the suicide disease, because a lot of people after the rate is about 50%, people of the people who have suicide in the first three years,
ASHLY
Oh, my gosh.
WAYNE
Yeah, it's a really, it's a painful disease. It's very, very painful. And so most people treat it with medication. So in 2015, I was ordained to be a patriarch, and I started having to have medication to treat the pain. But what I found out is that when I would take the pain medication, it was very hard for me to feel the Spirit. I took some one time and had two kids come for a patriarchal blessing, and I laid my hands on their head, and nothing would come. And I had to apologize to them and send them home, and go off the medication. And, ever since then, I haven't taken any medication. And, and what I've found is that, and I'm not saying people who take pain medication shouldn't, I'm just saying that I couldn't, and do what I do. But what I found is that when we have things that interfere with the Spirit, we need to do our very best to remove those things and find other ways too. For me, I meditate a lot. So that I can feel the Spirit and I can get rid of the pain. And I think that in today's world, there too, there are so many ways that we get distracted. It may be medication, it may be the internet, social media, there's so many things that can distract us and take our time, that every time that we become distracted, we turn ourselves away from the Lord, we turn to the world. And we turn away from the light of the gospel. And so I think that that would be another thing that I'd recommend to people is, if you find that you're spending more time, or energy, chasing relief, maybe it's relief from worries and concerns, pressures of the world, then look to the Lord for that relief, rather than looking the world. And we'll find we'll find more peace and, and actually, it's part of the test. The Lord says, you know, we come to this world, and we come to gain experience. A lot of times we avoid the experience, because sometimes the experience is painful. And the Lord’s just asking us, “Well, would you look to me for the answer? And if you will, I promise I'll help you find it. But it's gonna take some work, some sacrifice.” So I think that's another thing that I would tell people is, if you're struggling with answers, make sure that you don't replace the Lord by trying to find answers in other places.
ASHLY
24:10
Yeah, I think that's so true. I mean, it kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier about, you know, looking for answers in wrong places. Because if you turn to the Lord, you will find, I mean, it might not be the same type of answer that you would find on an internet search page, but you'll find the peace in your heart that comes with, you know, asking the Lord. That comment that you, I mean, what you said about what you're going through with your illness. And that is just, wow. That's unbelievable that you have had to go through that.
WAYNE
24:49
Well, you know, that's one of the miracles of the gospel, is that if you start looking for the answers in the gospel, in listening to the words of Latter-day prophets, and you'll find your answers. You'll find ways to cope with it, whatever difficulty or challenge that you have. You know, one of the things I wanted was to go back to what we started earlier, if you don't mind?
ASHLY
Yes, please.
WAYNE
When we are talking about pure light coming into our mind, I think about Joseph Smith and other leaders of the church and people say, “Well, all of these policy changes,” or “these decisions that these early prophets made, they were just terrible. They were wrong, they shouldn't have done that.” Well, I can begin to understand how they feel because that pure light flows into their mind. And the Lord says, “Now I want you to act.” And they're saying, Well, I know what's revelation, because it was pure light. But I don't know exactly how to take what I felt and implement it. And so the Lord just says, just start. And so the leaders of the church just start, and they make a few mistakes. And the Lord says, “Well, that's okay. Because we'll work around the mistakes.” And so here's poor Joseph Smith. You know, we look at him, and we judge him based on what we can see today. But he was trying so hard to do it right. And the Lord is so loving and so patient, that he said, “Okay, you made a mistake there. Let's fix it. And we'll move on.” And in our mind, you know, 200 years is a long time. But in the Lord's mind, that's not very long at all.
ASHLY
Yeah.
WAYNE
So I think we also have to look at when the revelation comes to our leaders, if they make, and even in the latter days, if they make a policy decision, and it wasn't quite right, we just have to realize that they are trying really hard to follow the revelation that comes in. If they don't get it right, They will eventually, because the Lord will make sure it happens, right?
ASHLY
27:00
Yeah. Yep, that is so true. I love that. What advice would you have for somebody that is going to get their patriarchal blessing?
WAYNE
27:17
Oh, that's good. Maybe a couple of things. Tradition in some parts of the world is that we don't get it till we're older. But the youngest that I've given a blessing is, a couple of kids at 10, and the oldest is at 80, in their 80s. And so I think you need to be mature enough to understand what a patriarchal blessing is, and be willing to follow its direction, and some 10 year olds are ready, and some aren't. But I would recommend getting it as early as you can. Because you need the direction, especially through your teenage years. I recommend that people fast, but some people are not able to fast for 24 hours from food. But people can fast from things that they do every day like social media, television, those kinds of things. And so if a food fast is not something that you can do, sacrifice something. And when we sacrifice things for the Lord, then the Lord returns it many fold. The other thing that I would do as the patriarch, we get an electronic copy from the church saying this person has the recommend. But as the patriarch, we're not supposed to call them and set it up. And so, the person needs to call and set it up. And as soon as you set it up, begin at that point to pray that one, the patriarch will be directed by the Spirit to know what to say. And but to thee, that as a recipient, you will also be receptive to the messages that come and true to all revelation. The words that are spoken at that moment in the blessing may not be the words that the Lord reveals to your mind. So pay closer attention to the feelings that you have, while you're getting it than the words that you hear, because the words will come and you will be able to read them for the rest of your life.
ASHLY
29:23
Um, quick question for you. I'm just curious, like, do patriarchs ever say something wrong? Or do they say something that they like, I'm curious, because I have somebody really close to me that had an experience where it actually was, she heard something said, and then when she got in the mail or a thing, it came in the mail, it was different, and it kind of was a testimony shaker. And this is actually the first chance I've ever had to talk to a patriarch like this. And so, because it's somebody that's really close to me, I really would like to know your thoughts on that.
WAYNE
30:02
Yes. And yes. The great thing about patriarchal blessings is you don't have to be perfect to get one and you don't have to be perfect to give one. And so what that means is, I was talking about that pure light— Well, you get this feeling that comes into your mind. And then you do your best to describe the feeling that you have. And sometimes the thing that you say, it's not quite right. And so it's most patriarchs that I know, we edit the blessing. So when it's recorded, it's put into a Word format. And then we go to a quiet and sacred place, and we pray. And we say, Heavenly Father, these are the words that I said, did I get it right? And if not, help me to know where I got it wrong. And then He is so loving and kind and patient, that He'll say, “You're close, but you didn't get this part quite right.” And so He'll guide us and direct us and He'll instruct us to make the changes that are important for the blessing. And so yeah, a lot of times things that are said, and as the patriarch gives the blessing are not the exact things what the recipient receives when the blessing comes. Boyd K. Packer said that our patriarchal blessing is a paragraph from our book of possibilities. And so sometimes you hear something from the patriarch when he gives the blessing. And it inspires a question, because the patriarchal blessing isn't an invitation to receive revelation. What you heard is something that you should pray about and receive direction, because, well, I'm the first to tell you, patriarchs are not perfect. We try really hard. But we're not, and never will be perfect until well after this life. So trust the feelings that you have more than the words that you hear.
ASHLY
31:57
I love that. What advice would you have for, I mean, I got my patriarchal blessing when I was 17, but almost 18. And it's crazy how little statements in my patriarchal blessing, they have popped out at all these different phases of my life. But I'm curious to know, you know, what advice would you have for people like me now, I'm 33. And I have my blessing. I mean, besides just read it regularly, what advice would you have to kind of use it as a tool for guiding?
WAYNE
32:32
I would recommend that you read it slower. Too often, we pull it out, and we read it at a time or two a year, sometimes. I would recommend pulling it out and, and reading the part that you feel like it applies to your life right now, you know, as a young mother, and see if there's anything in your blessing that applies to you to your time now. And then ask the Lord, what else do I need to know? And then He'll start to put thoughts in your mind. And the best thing that you can do is to write those thoughts down if, if this is a paragraph from your book of possibilities, the only way that you get to read the rest of the book is if you record the feelings that you have when you seek revelation from it. And so you just start asking questions, you don't have to read the whole thing all the way through. The other thing I would recommend is that people read it more often. To document, because lots of times we get, we read, and then we put it away, and then when trials come up in our life, we may pull it out again. If we would read it more frequently, like we do our scriptures, then we would get a lot more direction. The Lord will speak to us more.
ASHLY
33:51
Yeah, I love that so much. Well, is there any other final words of wisdom that you've got for us? Before we sign off tonight?
WAYNE
34:02
I would say trust the Lord. Be patient. He wants you to struggle. That's part of this mortal experience. And we all agreed to it. So accept the struggle and know that the struggle has a purpose. And know that when trials come, especially questions of your testimony come, welcome them. Because the Lord’s saying, “Okay, I trust you enough right now, to give you this trial, because I believe you're strong enough to seek the answer.” And, and so then we trust Him. And we just say, “Okay, I'll receive the trial. Now give me the counsel that I need.” And it may take years to get it, to be able to benefit from the trial. And as we trust Him more, and then act, because we can we can ask but we also have to act. If we'll act, we'll find that the Lord will help us to become much more than we ever weren't capable of becoming on our own. And the other thing I would do would be to ask for help, not just from the Lord but from people that you love, that you trust, and never forget that in the Book of Mormon says angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. And I think that a lot of times those angels are people that we love, or that love us, but they can also be those angels from the other side of the veil. I remember a story. I've listened, I think, to all your podcasts, and I remember a story that you've told about the question that you had about polygamy? Yes, and your grandmother? And you felt the Spirit, then when you read that?
ASHLY
Yes.
WAYNE
I think that, and I, you know, this is just me, but I think angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. And I wouldn't doubt that that's what grandmother of yours was standing there, put her hand on your shoulder and said, “Ashly, I love you. And I had this experience. And I just want you to feel a little bit about what I feel, and how I felt about that whole thing.” And I think that happens more often than we really realize. Those angels are there to bless us and help us. And we just need to ask for their help.
ASHLY
36:22
I love that so much. And I think, you know, in my first, in my episode, first one with my dad, he talks about his dad that passed away, and he drowned on a scouting trip. And my grandpa Sheldon, I have felt he has just been there almost helped me more on the other side of the veil than he could have here on this earth. And I know that, you know, my cousins, and my siblings have felt similar ways. And so hearing you say that, it's just like, I completely agree. There's just no denying that our family members that have passed are here with us and, you know, walking us through these trials in our lives.
WAYNE
37:10
So yeah, I think when Elijah called the servant out, and they were surrounded by the armies, and Elijah tells his servant, “They that be with us are far more than they that be with them,” that's the case for us. We're in battles, but we're surrounded by angels who love us probably are related to us. And are there pulling and fighting for us every bit of the way and we just need to trust that they're there. And even when we feel alone, realize that we're not alone.
ASHLY
37:39
Love that. Well, Wayne, this was just the sweetest episode. Thank you so much for coming on. And thank you for coming on with such short notice. I just saw your email and I just knew that we needed to get you on the podcast so we could really sit quick. So I just thank you so much. And thank you for spending this evening with me.
WAYNE
38:01
Well, thank you. We love you. We appreciate all that you're doing.
ASHLY
Well, thank you so much.
