"I was playing football with my boys and my oldest said "Dad, I really want to go back to church. I miss it." And I asked "Why do you miss it?" And he says "I miss the feeling I had there." Then the other boys chimed in and said they really wanted to go back to Scouts. Then we all hugged and had that moment and they just said "Dad can you take us back to church?" And it just floored me, so I took them the next week."
Come Back PodcastTranscript
ASHLY
00:15
Karl, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. You have such a cool story. And when you messaged me, I was like, “Yeah. I need to have him on the podcast.” Because I think that your story probably relates with a lot of people, especially probably in Utah. And I think that by you being brave enough to share your story with people, it will—I can almost guarantee that after this episode gets released, I'll get a ton of emails from people that are saying, “Oh my gosh, I've experienced the same thing” or, you know, similar. So, yeah, I'd love to hear a little bit about just, you know, today, like maybe a little bit about you. And then let's just dive right in.
KARL
1:03
Sure. Well, I'm 53 now, your old guy, single. So, you know, hey. I have five children, one girl, four boys, and they’re, four of them are now in their 20s. And then I have a 18 year old son who is going to be graduating this year in high school. So quite a crew that I'm responsible for, and lived in Pleasant Grove, Utah County since 2001. And I'm just kind of going back, I grew up in Salt Lake County, I got married when I was, after the mission, 24-25 years, I think it was right before my 25th birthday. Straight arrow, you know. In high school, kept my nose clean. So did my ex, you know, you could have, we did everything by the book, right? Met her when I was a waiter at Olive Garden, it was kind of funny. And she was on another date. So anyway, it was a fun job. And then we met, got engaged quick, got married real fast, within six months. And then, you know, just started life out. We had our first child after just a year, which is a little quick. And then, but back then in the early 90s, this whole new way of doing it here in Utah, I guess, with some of the younger folks now—they wait a little longer to have their families, which actually, when I look back, that's probably smart. But you know, we were doing what we thought we were supposed to be doing. And she was a little younger than me, she was only 19. And I think that was a little hard on her. And having four, five kids by the time we were married 11 years, was very difficult on her. And at the time too, I mean, we were going to church regularly. But around 2004 or 2005, I started getting kind of curious. And I had run across some stuff on the internet about the Book of Abraham. And, you know, that went down a rabbit hole, of course, and being that YouTube channels weren't there yet, really, so it was kind of the Wild West still. John Delin had just started a podcast or something about trying to keep the communication open between people who were staying and leaving. And I hadn't got to that stage yet. But I read another book, called Sacred Loneliness. And then that led to Rough Stone Rolling. And then I really dug in, and it kind of opened my eyes. Now my dad, he had gone to BYU and was a history major. So I mean, he knew his stuff. But um, you know, he had a struggle too at one point, and I think that had a little bit of an effect on me when I was a kid. I mean, I went on the mission. And I did have a counselor in my bishopric at the time when I was a youth told me that I had a rebellious spirit, which I went to church every Sunday, so I don't know where he came up with that. And this same guy ended up excommunicated later. So I don't know where he came up with that. I think it was because of my dad's reputation in the ward. So I had kind of a brush with, “Don't believe everything you hear,” “Make sure you study,” and you know, praying was subjective. I mean, I feel good. Well, you feel good about a lot of things, you know. And so I didn't hear any voices on high, burning in the bosom, other than some really spiritual experiences on my mission, which I'll talk about later, which kind of helped me down the road. But for the most part I was, to be honest, bored. You know, we had five kids, life was a routine. I was in the mortgage business at the time. I mean, I probably was doing some things that were not conducive to gospel principles. So there were a number of little things that just kept piling up. Well, when I started reading that there were some other things that were going on, and had been going on for quite a while just you know, for little instances like we would get Cinemax and Showtime. And, you know, we had made this agreement that, you know, if anybody looked at any kind of porn that it was together, right, that would make it better, of course. And so that began to escalate a little bit. And so then with me, reading that material, wasn't difficult. In terms of the spiritual frame of mind, I wasn't at the time to say, “You know, what, I don't know if I buy it completely. And maybe it'd be nice to take a break.” And so I was a little scared, though, because I had some friends at work who, you know, their wives had left on this, you know, left them just because they had a porn issue. And I was like, wow, you know, that's a little extreme. My ex was from a pretty tight LDS family that, you know, was well connected. And so I, you know, I figured I might be in a little trouble, which is kind of weird, I should have known her a little better than that. But at that point, she agreed with me. And basically, she was done, which kind of surprised me, she hadn't read anything. And I gave her some material to read. And at that point, we were kind of out. We, we both stopped wearing garments, we were a little nervous that our family would pick up on it. But then we kind of thought, what do we do now? It's kind of like Sundays free. That was nice. But what do you fill the rest of the time in? You know, what do you do at that point? And, you know, there were some things that we wanted to try, you know, we hadn't, I mean, we've been straight laced, do-everything-by-the-book LDS kids, when we grew up. And so at that point, we started to experiment. We went to some clubs, we, start drinking, occasionally, you know, for social reasons. I gradually noticed that our lives became more and more about, you know, my wife and I’s social life than really about the kids completely.
ASHLY
7:28
What did your kids think about you guys not going to church anymore? Like how old were they at the time?
KARL
My oldest daughter at the time, she didn't have as much trouble with it, because the neighborhood we were in was a little bit of higher-end. And some of the girls had treated her poorly in this, and we had moved within that year. And so she wasn't too happy about it. The boys, they were doing a little bit better with their, the young men their age, they were in scouts. And one of them had just been baptized. But they were young enough, they were all under the age of, I think 10 or 11 at the time, that they really didn't, you know, have too much trouble with it. We tried to fill Sundays as family day. And we would, you know, go on adventures. And for a little bit, we went to an evangelical church up in Draper that I found out later kind of is kind of set up to attract former LDS or soon-to-be-out-of-the-church LDS people. And I mean, the first day I smelled coffee at a church service that kind of shocked me. And the other cool thing was, you could wear shorts and T-shirts. And that was another thing. And I was like, well, first few times, I was a little bit of culture shock for me, but after a while I kind of liked it. But one thing I couldn't understand and never could get comfortable with was the whole Trinity. That was, you know, I tried a number of times to talk to the head preacher, nice guy, nice guy. And he tried, but I just wasn't down with it. And so after a while, we stopped going and there was a couple other reasons for that. Going to these clubs, we had met some other folks that were former LDS or current LDS and, a little surprised on the current LDS, but they have their own stories, and I'm not going to get into too much of it. You know, over time, we started going to some of these parties that you probably shouldn't go to. I mean, I don't have to spell it out. But there's a popular gym down at Draper. A lot of things are going on in Salt Lake County that would shock some people, especially people who are LDS but like you said at the beginning of the cast, you know, some of these people need to know that they're not alone.
ASHLY
10:08
Right.
KARL
Yeah. And so we made some decisions because honestly, we were out. We didn't believe it. I mean, I was kind of done. Obviously, it wouldn’t have been my first pick. But we ran into these people by chance. And they invited us to a couple of parties. And it took us a long time before we even thought about participating. But we eventually, you know, start participating. And then a crazy six year period started, and went from just being casually involved, heavily involved to meeting another couple, turned into more of a poly type thing, and then it just, complete devastation to the marriage. And it affected my kids quite a bit actually.
ASHLY
10:57
Did they know kind of what was going on?
KARL
Not at first. I mean, we were pretty careful. You know, my oldest daughter did, I mean she was old enough that she figured it out. And one of my boys did, too. And we were a little careless towards the end, the youngest ones never really knew too much about it. I had other members of my family start snooping. I mean, we went to Hawaii with this couple. And so anyway, you know, you can never really hide something like that for very long. You know, and because families in Utah are so interrelated, I mean, in each other's business, eventually, we were found out and confronted. And first it was my folks. And my dad tried to do a fishing expedition. And have you ever heard of this term? And I was like, deadpan, nope. But then I finally came clean and
ASHLY
What was their reaction when you told them?
KARL
Oh, my mom was furious, just furious. She was not happy with her … I'm her oldest boy. She still looks at me, as the baby boy, you know, years ago, and I don't think I've ever seen my mom, just that disappointed. Then my dad, I mean, he was just trying to figure out what's going on. What's wrong with, you know, why am I involved in something like that? And soon, her parents found out, almost a year or two later, though, and they actually threatened to turn us into child services. But it was kind of a, I mean, Child Services wouldn’t have done anything, because we took good care of them. Things started to go way off the tracks. And when you're involved in something like that, it gets to the point, it's all about you, or you and your partner and whoever you're parting with. And it becomes less and less about your family about the purpose, why you're here and, and if you have kids, you know, you should be taking care of them. Spending time with them, weekends should be with them. I mean, we weren't filling the week, that gap, after we left the church with something that would be fulfilling. And one day, I mean, I kind of got into the religious side, too. I kind of got into this whole—on Facebook, on General Conference weekend, make sure I put in some snippy comment or meme or reference an anti article. I had communicated with John Dehlin several times. And so you know, I thought I was kind of in the in crowd, you know. I went to New Mormon, New Order Mormon and you know, there was a bunch of other websites at the time that I was a member of. And so I was thinking I was this real smart guy that figured it all out, like a lot of, you know, guys, a lot of members who leave. And then one day, I was arguing with my dad on the phone about the Church, and he just, he just kind of stopped me in my tracks. And he said, “Well, Karl, if you're so I mean, if you're so done, and you don't think there's any value here, why are you so emotionally wrapped into it? Why is it so important to convince me—which you're never going to convince me—that it's not true?” And he's read everything. Nibly, Tinker, I think Nibly actually wrote a whole book about the anti side of things, and I'll probably mispronounce the title so I'm not going to go there but I haven't read it, but he has. So I was arguing against a wall basically, I wasn't going to convince him. But he basically said, “So if it has so much control, then why are you so emotionally wrapped into it?” And I guess that immediately shut me up. And then at that point, I started really thinking about it. After that weird things started I noticed that on Facebook and social media, when my anti friends would start ganging up on you know, people that I care about and people that I love, I did notice that I became a little feisty myself and defending them and their ability to believe what they wanted to believe. Over time it almost became like a dogma that John Dehlin, Kate Kelly, and a lot of these people cling to, they've created their own dogma, or in a sense, their own church. And I was a member of it! And I realized that. I'm like, that's not what I did this for, you know. I did this because I don't believe it. At that point, things really started going bad with this whole lifestyle that we were involved in, you know, it affected my marriage quite a bit. I mean, you're naive. If you ever think that that lifestyle is going to be good for your marriage. It's not.
KARL
16:05
Also too, I had a pretty good experience at a park with my sons. We went out to play football, it was a nice spring morning, I can still remember the day. Very vivid, it's one of those pivotal days that, you know, like 9/11. This was my 9/11. I was playing football with my boys, my oldest one who is interested in this girl in another neighborhood, and she was very LDS. And he said, “Dad, I, I really want to go back to church.” I was like, “Aw, man, really?” You know? He says, “Yeah.” And I said, “Well, why do you want to go back to church? Is it just because of this, this girl?” And he says, “No,” he says, “I just kind of miss it.” I said, “Well, why do you miss it?” And he said, “I just miss the feeling I had there.” And he was old enough to remember. And then my other boys had been constantly badgered by the scouts in this neighborhood we were living in. And they had been going for quite a while actually, the younger ones, and they chimed in too. “Dad, we want to go back to scouts. I mean, we want to go to church too, because that's where our friends are.” The neighbors in back, they were awesome. They still live in back of us. They had befriended my boys, especially when we were too busy with, you know, the things we were doing to really spend some quality time with them. And, I mean, it was a tear moment where we all kind of hugged and had that moment, and they just said, “Dad, can you take us back to church?” That really just kind of floored me. And so at that point, and I kind of knew things were going downhill. I knew my ex wasn't gonna be happy, because she hadn't made a decision to change, you know, and wanted anything different.
ASHLY
17:45
What was your marriage like, at that time? Like when all of this happened? Were you guys still, I mean, what did that look like in terms of your marriage?
KARL
17:41
Sleeping in different rooms, not communicating. I think she'd already wanted to leave jealousy. You know, I think there were some other pent up things. I mean, we're good friends now. We talk a lot now. But I was also angry too, because I felt like she wasn't trying. I mean, that might have been a little unfair, because I kind of helped steer us to where we were, you know.
ASHLY
Mmm-hmm.
KARL
And so I had to take some of that responsibility. And so I just knew that it was crashing, and fast. And I knew it was just a matter of time, before she left. I was more worried about the damage it cost, at that point. I finally woke up. That's why I say it was my 9/11. I was like, “Wow, I can't believe how bad this …” I just realized how bad it got. At that point, like I said, I knew that they were going to tell their mom, and so I wasn't too worried about it. Because it's like, “Well, tough,” you know? If they want to go back then we need to support them in that, and so I took him the next week. And the bishop immediately identified me as, “Who's that?” They've lived in the area for five years. They knew who I was, they're really good at that. They'd been loving us for years at that point, you know, leaving pies at Christmas, and 12 Days Before Christmas. He cornered me after the meeting, wanted to meet with me, you know. Immediately told me I need to come back to church every week. I was like, “I don't like it when people push me. So you're probably not gonna see me for another year.” And I didn't go back for another year, but I would take them to church, I would drop them off, and then go back and pick them up, and do that every week that they wanted to go. And meanwhile, things kept getting worse. At that point, my spiritual journey started. When your wife leaves you, and now the boys want to stay with me. My daughter had already moved out; she had graduated and was of the age that she just want to get out of there. I mean, right when you're going through a divorce that year, when it's extended like that and you haven't separated because of finances, it's kind of ugly. It's hard on everybody. I was working Uber, and work. I was gone all the time. Because I didn't want to be there. She didn't want to be there. And then when we were there together, it was kind of caustic. Even though most of the time we kept it as nice as we could. But every once in a while there, something would break out, and it would get pretty, it gets quickly ugly, and then end real fast. But the kids knew that, something wasn't right. You know, I knew it just a matter of time. And soon enough after that last Christmas, she moved out.
KARL
20:50
And I was kind of relieved. Because immediately the spirit in the home changed. The boys wanted to stay with me, just because they wanted to stay in the home and see their friends and go to church, and my ex was good enough to support that. She moved in somewhere pretty close. And then they would get to see her, you know, visitation, that kind of thing. But for a while, that's how we had it. And during that time, I had to do a lot of self reflection on you know, I'm in a pretty bad spot. And what was really cool at that time, though, I had inadvertently ran into a friend. I was in the mortgage business at the time. And they had invited me to a network marketing company that used to have their leaders in Amway. Now, not something I would push or normally be involved in. Before all this, you know, some really good people that would go to these meetings, and I went to one of these meetings. And I mean, I don't know, I can't even remember exactly what the message was. But it was a temporal message, but also kind of, you know, how people in the LDS faith we, if we go to a meeting, even a business meeting, you're gonna wrap in some gospel message.
22:10
And so for the first time, in a long time, I kind of felt the Spirit. And I also realized I was so off track, I needed something like this. And so I signed up, and I started going to those meetings, but it was about six months into that there was a real bad night, my ex took all the money out of her bank account. And so I thought, okay, it's happening now, you know, and it wasn't, but, and my car had a blowout on the freeway up to this meeting that I was going to go to, I had this medical issue, and then my friend, he picked me up, and he gave me a blessing. And it just kind of, we had a long talk. And basically, he just said, you know, “Karl,” he said, “I get the feeling that you want to come back. But you're kind of stubborn.” And I'm like, “Yeah, there's these issues. And you know, these issues that I haven't put on the shelf yet that I think are big issues that the church has problems with. And he and he kind of said, “Okay, okay, let's, let's put that to the side, though.” He said, “You can't have one foot in and one foot out. In other words, you got to get both in.” And that kind of hit, you know, I finally stopped wanting to get smacked in the head. And I realized that if I'm going to do this, I need to do it the right way. So, I went back to church, and this bishop, he was still there. And he saw me, and he pulled me aside, and I said, “You better get the Kleenex box. We're gonna be a while.” So for the next hour and a half, I kind of poured out everything: what happened, where I was at. We both cried, he gave me a big hug. I felt a little better, you know? And he said, “Will you please come to church?” And I said, “Yeah.” So the thing that really, though, sealed the deal, it was probably the thing that, before I’d left, I'd probably have been the most nervous about. It was, you're going to need to talk to the stake president, of course. And I said okay. And I was like, “Alright, well, I'm ready. You know, if you need to excommunicate me, lay the boom down. I mean, I deserve it. I want to get this out of the way. I want to start the process of healing. But I went in to see our stake president, and I don't know if everybody thinks their stake president’s going to be a general authority someday, but I kind of feel like this guy will be. Nice guy. In fact, it's kind of funny. He's a CHO of a human resources, some big company somewhere. But, you know, I had never met him. I didn't know who he was. And first thing he does is he comes in and gives me a hug. You know, it's funny how all these leaders give you hugs, you know, if you’re not a huggy person. He just said, “Come on in, let's say a prayer.” He wanted me to give the prayer, which I felt a little uncomfortable. It was a really short prayer, or maybe no, he gave the prayer the first time, I'm sorry. He wanted me to read a scripture. I hadn't looked at the Book of Mormon in years. Ao I flipped it to some scripture I remembered from my mission. And so we read it. And then he opened it to Alma. We stayed at ALMA 29 to 32. The entire time I met with him for the next six months. I mean, it was it, we, that's all we talked about. But anyway, we started reading the scriptures. And then the pivotal moment was he looked at me, and he said, “Karl, your Savior loves you.” And when he said that … sorry, I just remember the feelings. But that was it. That was, I mean, I felt the Spirit more than I've ever felt it. You know, it was incredible. And I walked out of that office, I was higher than a kite. I mean, I hadn't felt as light for years. I didn't realize how heavy my spirit had been, until that moment. So for the next six months, you know, I met with him, and then he wanted to have me meet with the High Council. And so I mean, I was, “Okay. I’m out.” I found a lot more about how church discipline works too during that process. And a lot of it's up to him. And I had done everything they had asked, I think, based on our meetings, too, he'd realized that I really wanted to change. And I was done, completely done with everything. Probably the next biggest moment was the High Council, and people who are afraid of the High Council—you shouldn't be. It is really a council bluff. They say that, and I always kind of laughed, and when I was in my anti days, even though I made fun of it, but it really is. Those men were very loving, and very interested in my story, but more importantly, they were interested in what I had been doing currently, and how I felt where my testimony was. And I remember bearing my testimony in front of those men, and
27:27
completely at peace in terms of what would happen after you know, and I sat for quite a while waiting for him to decide. And then when I came in, they all gave me a hug and was put on probation for a year, but it turned into two, but just because people got busy, and eventually, my parents had their 50th anniversary, they wanted me to get to the temple. So I kind of said, I kind of, move this along if we can. And they're like, “Yeah, yeah, sure. You're good.” So anyway, then you have to go again before them and then they, not probation anymore at that point. And as to, all your blessings are restored. And so, I mean, one thing I do remember, we continued to meet a few more times the stake president and I, and one thing he told me, he was just, he said, “Just be aware that a lot of the struggles that you probably may have had before this all started, before you fell away, that you're still gonna have to deal with them. It's pretty heavy, all the spiritual uplifting you get through the experience, but when it's over, he's right. I mean, COVID hit just shortly after that. Everybody stopped going to church. You know, you watched it on TV. To be honest, I wasn't ready to do the gospel lessons with my kids every week, you know, and I'm sure they knew that. So, you know, people still to this day, I go out with a guy that's now the first counselor in the new stake presidency in my stake, and we go to Kneaders, every couple months and just talk. He and I, it was funny—he was the bishop. He was just on the tail end when we moved into this house. And I was in the middle of doing my thing with my ex, and he and I were stake missionary companions, back when I was first married, back in South Jordan.
ASHLY
Oh my gosh.
29:27
KARL
Yeah. And he had actually showed me the neighborhood he had bought a house in, which was right by where my house was, that we just barely moved into. And so I got a phone call from my ex saying, “Hey, the bishop’s at the house, and I know who that guy was.” And it's like, “I think I know who that is.” She said, “Yeah, he lived in my grandma's ward.” And I'm like, “Oh, boy.” And so I walk in. He looks at me, I look at him. I knew what he's thinking. And I melt. I immediately felt a little guilt, even though I kind of was proud and, you know, very anti at the moment. You know, I couldn't wait for him to get out the door. But he and I are best friends now. And he's stood by me the whole time. I think members do their best. They all, they try their best. And I think when you're trying to get out of something like the church, you're finding any excuse. And they're such easy targets. You know, my minister doesn't do their job right. Or someone said something to me. This leader said something that a BYU devotional, I mean, with Holland, in his comments about the LGBTQ issue. I'm sorry, your path out was started long before that. I think we've got to check ourselves sometimes in our attitudes, and especially with our fellow members, these people have the same kind of busy life that you and I have. I mean, we should, we need to stop judging them. They're doing their best. And I'm so thankful for the people in this neighborhood, this ward. And there were some good people in the previous one, you know, we had both used the excuses and reasons for leaving, and then kind of unloaded it on them as one of the other reasons we're leaving, when in reality, it was all on us. That's the reason we were leaving. All I can say is, you know, be wise in terms of the way you treat people. Because they might be the people that actually are the ones that, you know, hold out their hands and help you back. I’m very grateful for them. And I found out other people who would put my name in the temple: my mom every week—they’re temple workers up in Boise; other members of my family had been praying for me. I have a great relationship with my ex’s father still, you know, they are extremely happy that I had come back and the kids were baptized. And I did set apart my sons in the priesthood. So there's been a lot of blessings. I was able to go with my son to the temple, before he went on his mission before COVID hit. And I have another son who wants to take his endowments out soon. I have another son who's getting ready. Well, he'll leave on a mission, not right when he graduates, but he's trying to earn money. He wants to pay for most of it himself. Oh, I do have a great story, too. I've got to tell this one.
ASHLY
Let’s hear it.
32:42
KARL
This is my third son, David. He probably won't mind. He's the one that just got back from Reno on his mission, served two years there. And he's trying to figure things out now single. He's in a singles ward here in Utah County. And so girls, he's available. When he was just graduated from high school, it was— no, we had just split up. But he was kinda of this mindset, you know, he hadn't gone for quite a while. And he didn't feel like he wanted anything to do with it. You know, he's kind of close to his mom. And so you know, I don't think he wanted to disappoint her was part of it as well. But I might be reading into that a little bit. But the few times I had tried to invite him to come to church, he'd been kind of real standoffish and basically pushed me off and didn't want to do it. So we have this thing called Zion’s Camp in our stake. And it was you know, during the summer, you know, the church has been a little more creative on the scouting program. So I went to this meeting for my younger sons. And basically asked if you have anybody else that would like to go, why don't you ask him? And this brother Harris, my friend who, you know, stake presidency, he came to me, he's just like, “Ask David.” He doesn't want to go, he doesn't have anything to do with the church. And he's like, “Ask David.” I was just sitting there. I started feeling this feeling: better ask David. So I went home. I told him about it. I'm a sales guy. So I pitched it. I said, “Hey, this is gonna be fun, you're gonna go up to the woods. I mean, I know you're not an outside guy. But, you know, you're gonna be in a cabin, and there's gonna be girls there and you're gonna have all these cool experiences” and “How religious is it gonna be?” “I don't know, probably a little but you'll be okay.” And he's like, “Okay, I'll do it.” Shocked me. He tells the story better when he was there. But so he goes up to this camp. I didn’t think I'll hear anything, you know, I'll wait for the kids to get back and they get back and he sits me down. And I'm like, “Oh, I'm gonna hear about it.” Right? You know, all the things that are wrong with it. And he's got a big smile on his face and found out he was a superstar at this thing. He bore his testimony the last night. I mean, after that he wanted to go on his mission. He wanted to talk to the bishop, took care of some things, got a job at the post office here in Pleasant Grove and worked his tail off for the next year. He saved almost $15,000.
ASHLY
Oh my gosh.
KARL
Yeah, I mean, crazy.
ASHLY
Wow.
KARL
Paid for his whole mission. Plus, he had money to spare when he got home and still has it, you know. And so, just, no one helped him. I mean, he paid for his entire mission.
35:40
So, and then, it was funny, too. He was the first missionaries taught at home during the COVID. He's supposed to go to Mexico City. And they basically said, no, you're staying in the MTC at the house. So I was one of the first parents that dealt with a kid at home during MTC.
ASHLY
Wow.
KARL
And then, you know, the whole ward, we had a lot of kids going out at that time. And so everybody kind of had to deal with that, but just incredible the change in him. Just recently there was a night I was struggling and couldn't sleep and just got home, you know, we just had a long talk about the gospel, and some of the struggles I was having. I felt like I could talk to him about him and didn't have to be his dad, you know, I could just treat him like someone, a friend, because he is an adult now. And it was just, when I went to sleep that night, and I told him the next day, I said, you know, it's just amazing. To have someone that had the spiritual experiences, you had to have that priesthood now in my home, with mine, of course, but it's just to have someone else that I can communicate with and talk about these kinds of things with. It's great. And I remember in my prayers at night, thanking the Lord for, you know, the fact that I've been blessed, so much, based on where I was. And to be honest, that's probably what I struggle with sometimes, and I'm getting a lot better now. You know, my stake president called it vain regrets. And, I mean, yeah, the Lord might have forgiven you for your sins. The Atonement is the real deal. The effects of it still, you have to deal with the sins that you commit. And it also takes a while to forgive yourself and let it go. And that's the other thing I realized, letting my anger go with my ex, letting my anger go with myself, which was even the hardest part of all, you know, realizing that I'm a child of God, and He loves me. You know, just like the stake president said that day, which I felt, but I really didn't understand, I think, until now. So it's taken that long to really learn that. So I just take it day by day now. I saw your YouTube, I’m a YouTube nut. In fact, I even got my own podcast with some friends right now.
ASHLY
Oh that’s awesome. What is it?
KARL
Three Dad Bods.
ASHLY
Oh, I love it.
KARL
Yeah. So we're on Spotify, we just had our first episode. And we all grew up in West Valley, and all in the same ward. And so yeah, we're just three friends that are talking about the past and people we know, and subjects about the 80s and 90s that younger kids need to hear about. So I think Ashly, you're kind of up in that category.
ASHLY
Yep, I’m a 90s kid.
KARL
Yeah. Anyway, but I think what you're doing is awesome. So keep it up.
ASHLY
38:37
Yeah. Yes, it is a labor of love for sure. But it's worth it. I think that it's so cool to hear your story. And I mean, when you were just talking about forgiving yourself, and I thought, what a cool thing for you to come on the podcast and share your story with thousands of people that are going to hear it. I shared my whole background story, which is very wild and crazy. But there's something really healing about using your challenges that you've been through, when you know that it's gonna be kind of the roadmap for somebody else getting through something similar. And so I just, I mean, I don't think that it's any coincidence that, you know, you're on here sharing this story with these specific challenges, because people need to hear it. And I just, I don't know, like, I really appreciate you taking the time and reaching out. And I have a couple questions, if you don't mind.
KARL
39:34
Sure.
ASHLY
Okay, so I've shared this before on other episodes, but we, Lauren and I both have noticed, like a lot of people that you were talking about where their whole life is dedicated now to, you know, the church in a negative way, like their whole you know, people with their whole social media is dedicated to the church attacking the church. And people come to our social media pages and you know, say things to us, and sometimes Lauren and I are kind of like, how do we respond? And I'm just curious to know like, if you ever any advice maybe for somebody that is just in that transition phase of like, maybe they were, you know, very loud and proud about their ant-Mormon feelings and thoughts, and maybe they start to feel like, maybe I am wrong here or whatever. What advice would you have? Once your identity is so wrapped up in that, to change, it's gotta be very humbling to come back.
40:46
Well, it's difficult. It depends on the situation. I think, if you feel like they're really sincere, if they're just being sarcastic, and they're trying to get a rise out of you, it's better to ignore it. If they're sincere, but they really just want to be right, I do kind of rehearse it. I'll do the same thing my dad did. Because I look at it kind of like when you go through a divorce. And hopefully, you don't have to worry, ever worry about that. But if you do, or break, even if you've broken up with someone, it takes a little while to heal. And some of these, I've noticed some people who leave can just leave. They’re gone. And they never think about it again. And it’s kind of odd, but most people aren't that way. They have all these imagined hurts, and emotions, because a lot of it's based on how they grew up. A lot of the hurt, anger, might be with their parents’ situations that occurred when they were younger. Things that I mean, in our situation, there were some things that happened when we were younger, and I'm not going to go into that. And they get attached to the church, because maybe grandpa had a position in the ward, he was a high councilman. And then he did these things with the family, or, someone in the family did it. Why didn't he know? He should have known that. You know, those types of things happen in LDS families, unfortunately. And I think we sometimes, I'm not a therapist or psychologist, but I think that we attach meaning to that, and then it becomes kind of like a crutch later, when we want to make our voice known. And especially with other ones we feel like are being diluted or really don't understand the truth, or we simply just want to rain on their parade. “Especially those happy Mormons. Oh, my goodness, they drive you crazy, right? And so what a better way than to take them down—give them some facts that they can't refute.” But I've seen these two parties interact. And I mean, it's, you've got one side that, “I'm going to convince you that the Lord loves you, and you're going to come back” (you're not going to convince them of that). And then the other side, same thing, you know, “I'm gonna convince you you're deluded and Joseph Smith's a fraud,” (you're not gonna do that. It's not gonna happen). I don't know where the catharsis is, because I never saw it. I never felt satisfied making fun of LDS people. And when I find someone that I feel like is truly questioning, but if I have some good rapport with them, I'll just say, hey, look, is this really about what you've read? Or is this really about what you want to do? It went off the track. That's when the justification started. That's when, you know. And then I had a bishop come to me, and he said, “I think you're not living your covenants.” “Yeah, how do you know?” And, “Of course we are. I've read these books.” And, “Which books did you read?” You know, and then we got this long conversation and you can confound your Mormon or LDS friend. I mean, it's very easy to do that. But that's where it comes down to faith. You know, I mean, they keep saying that people just don't seem to get that message. This is what our faith is about. Faith is not a perfect knowledge, there has to be some trust that what we're doing is eventually, I mean, eventually, we're gonna see our Father in Heaven again, and believing in the message that Joseph Smith taught. I mean, there's some faith in that. I mean, what I love to be able to prove without a shadow of a doubt that the Book of Mormon is an actual ancient record, that horses existed in that time period? Sure, I'd love to. But I mean, I may not. And you know, what's crazy, is even on the other side, the dogma, the church of science they've created, they're always having bits and pieces of their dogma shaken or knocked out and it happens all the time as time goes on. So anyway, I just kind of move past that, and I just tried to, if you dig it, if you jump in the mire with them, that's all it's gonna become, it's gonna be a mess. And so the ones that I know are sarcastic and just have an axe to grind, I ignore it. Just tell them, if they keep pushing I’m like, “Hey, I love you, man. Let's talk about sports. You know, the Utes are horrible, go Cougs!” You know, that really makes them happy.
ASHLY
45:39
I’m not going to tell my husband that you said that.
KARL
But that ends the conversation, we move on. And then with those that I think are sincere, that's why I'm saying ASHLY, I mean, can you really just leave it alone? Can you just walk away from it? And if they tell me no, then I say, then there's something still there. And you got to figure out what it is.
ASHLY
I love that. That's so good.
KARL
46:08
Yeah. And you know, that's up to them. I mean, I figured it out. They can too. I think the Lord expects you to figure it out. You know, it's not an easy path. I mean, am I grateful for the lessons I learned and the blessings I have? Yes. Do I wish I would have done it a little easier? Sure. You know, but
ASHLY
46:26
I can relate to that, for sure.
KARL
Anyway, I think we all can.
ASHLY
Yes, I think so too. I think that we go through these things, because … Would you say that your coming out through all the things you went through, would you say that it refined your testimony? And, the testimony you have is more mature than it was previously?
KARL
I think maturity? Yes. I think that's a good word for it. It's not my primary or priest quorum testimony or even my MTC testimony anymore. It's a testimony earned from years of hard knocks and loving experiences. And especially through this, as they say, “never again,” that's my motto, too. I mean, that's why I brought up the 9/11. I mean, it's so apropos in my situation. I never want to go through that again. Maybe that's why I'm overall kind of reluctant to get too involved in dating right now. You know, eventually I gotta get over that too. You know, it's one of those things where I just don't want to have to go through anything even remotely like that again.
ASHLY
Yeah, sure.
ASHLY
47:43
Well, this has been such a good episode. And I'm so grateful that you reached out to me because your story is amazing. And I can't wait to publish it and have everyone hear it because it's awesome.
KARL
47:56
Well, I appreciate that. Thanks, Ashly. And you keep doing the good work. It was fun being on your podcast and I'll be a fan too. I'll keep watching.
ASHLY
Awesome.
KARL
All right. You have a good night.
