"One day in sacrament meeting I was worked up about some doctrinal question and the frustration of still not feeling I could get answers to prayer very well. They had announced the closing hymn was "How Firm A Foundation" which is precious to me, I had memorized all 7 verses. As soon as that was announced I had a question in my mind "Heavenly Father, I am believing and I am going, but what do I believe?" I felt the Lord bring into my memory "fear not I am with thee for be not dismayed, for I am thy God and will still give the aid." With that came the gift of peace right in that moment."
Come Back Podcast
Transcription
ASHLY
00:13
So that's why I just kind of let Heavenly Father decide who the next guest is. And that's how it goes. So,
LINDA
Thank you. I'm very grateful for the opportunity.
ASHLY
00:25
Yes, yes. So why don't we, tell me a little bit about you. I'd love to hear just kind of, you know, a little bit about you. And then let's just jump into your story.
LINDA
00:37
Well, I have grown up in Salt Lake City, Utah, and I grew up in a very, very happy, very active, faithful Latter-day Saint home. And let me just tell you briefly about my parents, because that's kind of interesting. To me, anyway. My mother came from good old pioneer stock, very faithful, very, you know, humble means; it was the depression and all that. And my dad grew up in a more financially stable home that they were not active. I think his mother maybe had been baptized but was not active. And his father was kind of an alcoholic, off and on and kind of anti-Mormon. Sweet man, good people. And when he met my mom, and they got married, he made a very conscious decision early on in their marriage. He looked at both those families and decided he wanted a family like my mom's side, and he decided that he wanted to be active in the church. And so he jumped in, they both jumped in with both feet. And that's how we were raised, there were six of us, I was the fourth. And all six of us have remained faithful and very happy with the gospel. My husband was also active, he passed away about eight years ago. And I think what attracted me to him more than anything was his faith and his testimony. And that's something that we shared.
He had lots of health problems through most of our married life. And it was tough, it really affected everything. It affected his career, his mental health, our finances, it was a struggle, but it was the gospel that carried us through and our shared faith. He, however, had a little faith crisis, just a couple of years before he died. And he shared with me all of his concerns, and at the time, they just kind of bounced off me. I wasn't troubled, I was able to, I think help steady him a little bit. And after a couple of years of his own struggle, I feel like he came through it and was stronger than ever. When he passed away, I think he was in a really good place with his testimony. So, I think if I had any struggles over my life, it was my own inability to recognize how the Spirit works with me. I struggled to know how to get answers to prayer. And sometimes even I would question if I had a testimony, because I could never point to a specific moment or dramatic experience or anything like that. And when those doubts would come up about” Do I really have a testimony?” I would just have to say, anyone who loves the gospel, as much as I do, must have a testimony. So, I'd kind of sweep those concerns under the rug and keep going. Through the roller coaster of our lives, we were very, very active. Callings, and … And I don't want to give the impression that I did it ever, ever have done it perfectly. I haven't. It's messy. You know? We struggled with all the things that everybody struggles with.
03:48
About 2018, I have a daughter who decided to host some firesides in her home. I'm kind of a religion class junkie, and I’d loved, you know, Education Week and all that kind of stuff. Honestly. COVID was kind of a boon in the sense of all the podcasts and stuff. Now I get to have Education Week every week, you know, because it's just all the time. So, when she decided to host these classes, or these firesides, I wanted to go so she and her husband and another daughter and her husband, and myself, we joined these firesides. And at the time I felt fine about it. The presenter said he was an ordinance worker in the temple. He was on the High Council. He'd run these classes past his stake president and so I felt confident that this was going to be a good thing. And at the same time, I started to attend another series in another city by a different guy. This was a retired BYU professor. But they were both kind of teaching the same thing, which was basically the doctrine of Christ, but they kind of put a different spin on it and they were associates with each other. And I don't want to take the time to go into how they taught this a little differently than what we typically hear in our mainstream Latter-day Saint view of things, but you know, they were teaching from the scriptures, and so I was curious and trying to figure out,” Let’s see, how do I feel about this?” And so, I continued. This is really such a cursory explanation. It's hard to explain what happened. But over time, I began to feel confused and disoriented, and not sure what to do about it. And I was frustrated and frightened with my questions that were being generated from these experiences. But not knowing where to turn, really. No one knew I was going through this.
ASHLY
05:
Were there other people that were in the group or going to these firesides that were experiencing similar things like they were feeling like it was … So, were the people that were doing the firesides, they were still active members of the church and all of that, and …?
LINDA
05:53
They said they were. Since that time, I've come to believe that I don't think so.
ASHLY
Okay.
LINDA
Yes, there were other people, really wonderful, good people, who were sharing personal experiences that were adding to my confusion, because they were validating what these guys were teaching and seeing how their take on it was such a blessing in their life. And some like me, were in fact, I remember one fellow just saying,” I can't come to these anymore. It's too …” The turning point came for me one evening, after class with the BYU professor guy. I was involved in a private conversation with him. And I don't remember what my question was. But at some point, he just kind of came right out and said that he felt like the leaders of the church are corrupt, and that the whole church has gone off the rails, and that it's a fraud, and all that stuff. And a funny thing happens to me when I am distressed. Sometimes I just shut down and go numb. And it was late that night, and I was tired. And that's what I did. I just kind of made a hasty retreat and went home and went to bed. About one o'clock, two o'clock in the morning, I all of a sudden woke up with a start and sat bolt upright in my bed with the horrifying thought, what if that's true? In my whole life, I could never have dreamed that I would ever, ever even have that thought. But there was the thought and the fear. And you know, I'm not prone to anxiety. I've never had anxiety. But that night, it felt like a panic attack. I mean, my heart was pounding, and I was shaking. And there were people in the home so I couldn't cry out loud. But if I had been alone, I would have cried out loud, like, you know, what do I do? I don't know. I don't know where to turn. I don't … What if that's true? Does that mean my whole life, I've been doing this all wrong? I've taught my kids wrong. What? Finally, and I’ve described it as a storm. There was a storm going on inside of me. Very intense.
08:18
And finally, the questions all boiled down into one question, which was, and I cried out in my heart, “Heavenly Father, what about my covenants? What about the covenant? Am I still in a covenant relationship with you?” And this is where I can't describe it. But He answered me. And it wasn't … I think one of the reasons why I've had such a hard time getting answers to prayer is because I was expecting to hear a voice outside of me coming in. It wasn't a voice outside of me. It was a voice inside of me that filled me, and with calm and with peace, and reassurance and love, and I just felt/heard the Lord say,” The covenant is real. And you're in it with me. And you're fine.” And I literally was able to lie right back down with a smile on my face and go right to sleep.
ASHLY
Wow.
LINDA
And I know I didn't make that up. Because I couldn't have switched gears like that. I've hesitated telling that story, because it's the most powerful spiritual experience I've ever had. But it was pivotal to my story. However, that didn't fix everything.
ASHLY
Yeah.
LINDA
You know, I still had questions. There's a weird thing that happens when you have a paradigm shift about the church. And I have to say I had not been a Pollyanna Mormon. I had been aware of the flaws in the way things can be handled and questions and stuff like that. But when you are in the middle of a faith crisis, sometimes you can have that little bit of a paradigm shift where instead of seeing everything through rose-colored glasses, you're seeing everything with some concern and skepticism. In other words, you know, when I drive across the Salt Lake Valley and see a temple before that, it was always a comforting, happy thought to see the temple. And when I was in this weird stage, I would, my stomach would get in knots. And I would think, “Ah, I don't know.” Around that time, all three of us, my daughters, and their husbands and myself, we all kind of reacted to this timeframe differently. They both left the church and their husbands. They've just left, for kind of different reasons, but those classes and stuff were kind of triggers to their leaving the church. I didn't want to leave. But I was also open to the possibility that I didn't know everything. And that maybe the Lord wanted, I didn't know. But I did say to Heavenly Father,” If you want me to leave the church, you're going to have to hit me over the head with a two by four. Because I can't leave something that's been such a blessing in my life. Something that my ancestors have sacrificed for. And that has been the greatest joy to me.”
But what I did do at that point, and I had established early on in my life, not perfectly, but some pretty good habits. I studied the scriptures and prayed every single day, most of my adult life, you know, frequent temple attendance and all that stuff. So, I consciously made the decision to keep doing those things. But now, as an investigator, literally. I felt like a child, I felt like I was starting all over. You know, I felt like, where I had thought I had all the answers before. Now I just had a whole bunch of questions. And so, I continued and actually threw gasoline on my, on my studies, I just, I didn't shy from the tough questions that I— And you know, I’m at the stage of my life where I had more time than young people to spend, studying, listening, learning and stuff like that. So, I continued, I got a notebook. And I put sections in it, set a section for questions that I wrote my questions down in the section where I wrote the scriptures and answers that came, and I just filled many pages. You know, the Lord really is so gracious, He just … I call it spiritual manna. I felt like every day spiritual manna came, and I still feel like that. It's still every day. Every day that I get wonderful material that feeds my soul and my faith. So, the real crisis here was that I needed to know how to hear the Lord, the Spirit. That was the crisis now. I decided I was gonna stay, I decided I was going to be investigator, but I knew that, that if I went to my bishop, or my stake president, I knew what they were gonna say. And if I went to a critic, or someone that's left, I knew what they were gonna say. So, I needed to hear from Him. Throughout my life, I've had people when I've shared this frustration with them about not being able to hear the Lord. People have laughed and just said, Oh, well then, you're being guided all the time, you just haven't figured out how to hear Him. And like, I know. What I did, though, was I began to shift my, instead of always, you know, hearing people share their spiritual experiences or their spiritual gifts— I've heard you actually say that you get chills. And other people talk about tingling or seeing auras, or having dreams or hearing … No, I don't get into that at all. And I don't know, I finally figured out that it's called the still small voice for a reason. And I'd always been expecting to hear another voice, I finally thought maybe it's going to be my voice. It's going to come in the package of my thoughts. And I'm embarrassed that it's taken me that long to figure that out. But I decided from that, at that point, to really start focusing more on paying attention to my thoughts and my feelings and trusting them more than I had before. And so that's what I did. And I just feel like the Lord has abundantly responded. I've had a few. I've had so many like every day spiritual experiences, but I'd like to maybe share just a couple of baby step things that were significant.
ASHLY
Yes.
LINDA
15:11
If that's okay.
ASLHY
Please do.
LINDA
So, one day I was at the temple, I think I'd been fasting, stressed, about, you know, agitated because I had questions and didn't know how to hear, how to get answers. And I had come out of the temple and was frustrated because I hadn't had a revelation. One of those little thought things came. And it was, I guess, distinctive enough that I was able to grasp it. And it was just simply, “Believe, and keep going.” I felt the Lord said,” Just believe and keep going.” And so that brought with it, you know, some peace. And so, I just decided to hang on to that. And I hung on to that for several months. And when I’d get agitated about stuff, I would just say, “He told you to believe and keep going. So that's what I'm going to do.” And that really, really helped. But, you know, the roller coaster. One day I was in sacrament meeting, and this was probably a few months later, and I was worked up about something, doctrinal question or something, and, and the frustration of, you know, still not feeling like I could get answers to prayer very well. It was the end of the meeting, they were announcing the closing hymn, and they announced that it was gonna be How Firm a Foundation, which is precious to me. I had memorized all seven verses, previous to that. And as soon as that was announced, and I've got this thought, or this question in my head,” Okay, Heavenly Father, I am believing and I'm going, but what do I believe?” And I felt the Lord, just download into my mind or bring it up from my memory or whatever, “Fear not I am with thee, oh be not dismayed, for I am thy God and will still give the aid.” And with that came the gift of peace, right in that moment, just like this knowing thing that was like, number one, you don't have to have the whole thing figured out right now. You don't have to have all the answers right now. Just hang with me. And we're gonna figure this out. And number two, you don't have to have anybody else's journey figured out either. Because, you know, my kids are leaving the church and, and so that was really, really significant to just, okay, take a deep breath, it's going to be okay. So that was another one of those little baby steps for me. And it carried me a while.
17:44
So, another one, a few months later, coming out of the temple, frustrated, because I hadn't had the revelation or whatever. And I felt the Lord this time. It really wasn't a chastisement, that it was kind of, I felt Him say, “Stop it. Stop dredging up the anxiety about this, stop rehashing.” You know, all the questions and the concerns and stuff like that. And it's almost like He was saying, “You're not trusting me. Trust me.” And so, I right in that moment, I just thought, Okay. I'm done. I'm done with that. There's nothing wrong with questions. Don't get me wrong. Questions are good. And they're important. And I pray often, that Heavenly Father will guide me to have the right questions. But there's a difference between, you know, good questions, and
18:41
ASHLY
going down the rabbit hole with your questions. Yep.
LINDA
going down the rabbit hole. Yep, that's right. That was another little turning point. There was another one that I, at that time, was a docent at the church history museum, which was cool. I've always really appreciated church history, but never had a good grasp of it. And so, this gave me a lot of opportunity to go deeper. And, you know, I've heard people say that if you have questions about church history, you shouldn't study less, you should study more. But, you know, being careful with your sources, and so I did that and really appreciated that. And one day, I was on duty at the church history museum and for those of you that have been there, on the second floor, there's an area called the President's Gallery. And there's an exhibit for each of the presidents of the church and I had time that was slow that day, and I had time to spend there. And let me back up and say that you know, critics of the church say that the leaders are corrupt and they're there for the power and the wealth. I've never believed that but those voices since some of them are close to me now can feel like static in my head. And so that day, but that static I just really spent time with each of those men, looking at the pictures reading about them, and it was a very spiritual experience as the Lord let me know that these are good men. They are not … It's laughable to me to think, I mean, looking at their pictures in their lives and stuff, you can just see that when they were 20 and 25 and 30 and 35 and 40, they were fathers, they were husbands. They were scoutmasters, home teachers, elders’ quorum, whatever. They were not saying, I'm going to climb this ladder, so I can be a general authority and make all that money. That's all.
ASHLY
Right.
LINDA
So that was another one of those little bricks in my wall, you know, a building me back up. I think the most, honestly, precious one came one day I was listening to a podcast. I was just at home in my kitchen. And I think it was Terryl Givens I think interviewing Elder Marlin K. Jensen, who had been a church historian. And at some point, in that interview, Tarryl asked Elder Jensen if he'd ever had a faith crisis, and Elder Jensen said, “No, I haven't.” And that's somehow, I don't know how he got into it, he started to talk about Alma 32. I could not tell you how many times I've read Alma 32 in my life, and I've loved it and appreciate it. But that day, it took on new significance for me and I would like to share a couple of those verses if that's okay. Please do and I know that these are, everybody's familiar with these, but that day they came alive for me. So Elder Jensen starts, let's see. It's just a couple of verses. This is verse 27: “Behold, if you will awake and arouse your faculties even to an experiment upon my word …” And that's probably what grabbed my attention right there, because I thought, “That's what I'm doing. I'm doing that.”” … and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if you can no more than desire to believe …” and I was desiring to believe. “… let this desire work in you even until you believe in a manner that you can give place for a portion of my words. Now we will compare the word until a seed. Now if you give place that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed or a good seed, if you do not cast it out by your unbelief, that you will resist the Spirit of the Lord …” that's really important right there. If we don't cast, it out with our unbelief. “… behold it will begin to swell within your breasts and when you feel these swelling motions you will begin to say within yourselves it must needs be that this is a good seed or that the word is good for it begins to enlarge my soul. Yea, it begins to enlighten my understanding, yet beginneth to be delicious to me.” These words you know—swelling motions, enlarge my soul, enlighten my understanding, delicious—these are words that that day were just like ding ding, ding, ding, ding.
ASHLY
Yeah.
LINDA
I recognize those words. That's me. So, let's see I'm gonna drop down. “And now behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith for ye will say I know that this is a good seed. And now behold, because you have tried the experiment and planted the seed and it swelleth and sprouteth and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good for you know that the word has swelled your souls and you also know that it hath sprouted up that your understanding does begin to be enlightened and your mind does begin to expand all then is not this real? I say unto you, yay, because it is light. And whatsoever is light is good.” When elder Jensen said that part about “Oh, then, is not this real,” he got really emotional and couldn't speak, and I remember just being riveted on my kitchen floor just like the light bulb went on. I just thought, “This is how the Lord works with me. This is how he's been working with me my whole life. “You know, I've described it as a thrill that goes through me or a surge of energy and so you know, again, I'm embarrassed that it took me that long to figure it out. But that's been the most precious thing for me because I feel like a different person. Now, I figured at least that much out. I haven't figured out how to get specific answers to specific prayers and stuff like that, but I'm at peace knowing that I will. If I need to like the night of the storm, he'll get through to me.
ASHLY
25:03
Mmhmm. I do have some questions. And I also have a comment. I think it's interesting that the scripture in Alma about experimenting is so similar to what I did in my, you know, coming back to church. I thought, “I don't know if this is going to make me happy. I don't know if this is it for me, but I'm just going to experiment and I'm just going to do everything they tell me to do. And if I'm not, like, if it doesn't do it for me, after I've done everything, they say, then I'll go back to my old ways. But, you know, if it does, if it does help me, then I'll keep going.” And it was just my little experiment. And that's exactly what I did. And I love in that scripture, how it says that—did it say your mind is expanded, or your soul?
LINDA
Yeah. Yeah.
ASHLY
Is your soul enlarged? It's so, the church and the gospel, it's so, it just adds so much depth to life. You know, there's so much more to life, and so much more that we can just experience and, you know, it's not so surface level, it's not all about like, just jobs and money and cars, and you know, what we're … There's so much more meaning to our life and purpose and why we're here. And there's so much hope and faith. And there's so much more to this than just what we're going through right now. And so anyway, I just, I think it's pretty spot on, that scripture in Alma. I just, I love it. And thank you so much for sharing that.
LINDA
26:38
Well, you're welcome. I love what you just said. That speaks to me. The gospel brings me so much joy. One of my mantras lately has been that the fruits of the gospel and the gifts of the Spirit are real. And I live them. I experience them all the time. And even when there's turbulence, a lot of turbulence in the world around me and in my own life, those gifts of the Spirit and the fruits of the gospel meaning peace and hope those words that you just used, they're real for me. And I'm just so grateful.
ASHLY
27:13
You can’t deny it. You can't deny the peace.
LINDA
No. Another mantra has been don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. And I think it's tricky sometimes figuring out what the baby is and what the bathwater is.
ASHLY
Yeah.
LINDA
And you've mentioned Lawrence Corbridge’s talk Stand Forever, and the primary questions and the secondary questions. And that's really helped me figure out what the baby is and what the bathwater is. And you know, when there are policy things that are unsettling, or things that happen that make the church not look good, whatever, I'm able to kind of say, I've got the primary things in place. Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, the Restoration, the Book of Mormon. And so, I've been really grateful for that.
ASHLY
28:05
Yeah. So, what has your relationship been like, with your kids that have left? How do you navigate that? I know that I get asked a lot on the podcast or in social media and emails to ask the family members what they, how they navigate that relationship. And so I'm really curious to know what it's been like with you, recovering from your faith crisis, or working through that, and then having your kids stay on the other side.
LINDA
28:34
It hasn't been easy. It feels like an earthquake hit our family. And I have seven living children, one that passed away when she was a baby, but it's about half. Half who stayed and half who've left. And it's been, all of us have had to learn how to do this differently. Let me just tell you a quick little experience that happened. One of the daughters that had left was living with me at the time. We weren't super close, especially where the gospel is concerned. She's very deep thinking and literally a day wouldn't go by that we wouldn't somehow find ourselves in a deep gospel discussion. And so, I really missed that. They've moved now, just because they needed a different housing situation, but so we've had to learn how to build our relationship on something besides the gospel. But anyway, back to when we were attending the classes, and we were in a lot of turmoil, all of us, and one day I came into the kitchen and found her in a top where I can see she wasn't wearing her garments. And I said, “Oh, you're not wearing your garments.” And she said, with some sarcasm, “Yeah, I want to see if I get hit by lightning.” And so, I stayed calm, but when I had a chance, I went to my room, closed the door and dropped to my knees and said to Heavenly Father,” What do I do?” I was really upset, and I was able to hear the answer that day. He said, “That's between her and me.” And so that's become sort of my stance. That's how I do it. It's between Him and them. And in one way, you know, I've heard you ask some of your other guests if they're grateful for their faith crisis.
ASHLY
Mmhmm.
LINDA
And I kind of am. For a lot of reasons, you know, it certainly has intensified my faith. I've kind of gone from simplicity, complexity, simplicity and you know Bruce Hafen …
ASHLY
Yeah.
LINDA
But I also am so grateful because it's helped me to have compassion for those who go through this and leave.
ASHLY
Mmhmm.
LINDA
I get it in a way that I never could have gotten it before.
ASHLY
Mmhmm.
LINDA
And I do. They are, these are good people. And I trust, I've told them, “I trust you and I trust God, and the two of you will figure it out.”
ASHLY
31:05
Yep, I've had a similar feeling that way. Like, I think I've mentioned in my podcast before that I have family members that I'm like, I wish they would listen to the podcast! I mean, like, to me, it means so much to me that all these people have these incredible stories of coming back. And I wish they would listen. And I know that they aren't, but I’ve felt the Spirit tell me very clearly that, don't push my, like, it is not my place to create their journey or to interfere with their experience. And coming back, it is not my place to say, you know, they're going through exactly what they need to go through to be who God wants them to be.
LINDA
31:52
Right, right. And I feel exactly the same way. And I am super grateful that I have a son who's gay, who's left the church who's probably pretty much atheist, I think, but we have maintained a really sweet relationship, we get together often. And we can talk about lots of stuff, just not politics and not religion. But there's mutual respect and mutual love. And I can say that for every one of my kids, and all of my kids are very kind to me and I’m kind to them. And, you know, we do have to dance around the elephant in the kitchen, somewhat, and that's a learning process to know how to do that. And we ran into the elephant here a few weeks ago, and it was a little bit painful, but you know, we just, the gospel has taught us, including them, how to forgive.
ASHLY
Yep.
LINDA
So, we do.
ASHLY
32:52
Yeah. When you guys talk about like, when you say you ran into the elephant in the room, I'm just curious, because, a lot of people listening to this podcast, they have similar situations where people in their family are leaving, and it's like, when you're approaching conversations with them, I mean, do you typically just avoid talking about them leaving? Or do you typically avoid it? Or is there a way to like, have a constructive conversation about, you know, faith differences? Or do you think that it's better to just avoid it?
ASHLY
33:27
I've done both. Early on with the daughter that was living with me, I had handled the situation, not well. We'd had a family gathering, it was one of the first like, Fourth of July or something, after them leaving and, and I didn't know how to do this. I didn't know really where they are, were at, and what was acceptable to them. And it was time to gather for the blessing on the food. And most of the family was outside. And those two girls were in the kitchen. And so, I stepped into the kitchen and said, I don't know what I said, something like, I don't know if you still believe in prayer or not. But we're having the blessing on the food. And I saw a look go between them, that I just knew that I had handled that wrong, that was insulting or something. So later, I think a day or two after that, I sat down with the one that had lived with me and apologized. And we talked a little bit more openly and I just said, “I don't know how to do this, you're gonna have to be patient with me.” And we were a little more direct in that conversation and expressed … I remember telling her at that time how, when she was a teenager, she had been very hard for me to access. Emotionally. She kept me at arm's length. When she was about 19, she got really, really interested in the gospel and decided to serve a mission. And we got really close as she prepared for a mission. And that's when we started to have these wonderful gospel discussions. And so, I told her that day, I said,” I’m afraid that as you leave the church, you're also leaving me.” Saying that, I don't know. I think I am guilty of avoiding it too much. I'm trying, see that was five years ago, and I'm trying to learn how to be more comfortable and natural in talking about the church in my life. And I haven't really opened— maybe I should, open myself up to like,” Tell me what you believe.” I just haven't. And I, you can see, I don't know how to do this.
ASHLY
35:41
I really don't know, either. And, I mean, based on, we did an episode with Jared Halverson, recently.
LINDA
Yeah, I saw that.
ASHLY
Yeah, and it was really good. And he talks about just, you know, sitting with people with where they're at. And, you know, and it's not just you Linda. I'm partially asking you these questions, because I truly want to know what you think, because I don't think I really know how to navigate these situations either. And I think that what you said, though, is so just perfectly said, about your kind of spiritual experience with, this is between them and God. Not our place to insert ourselves into their faith journey.
LINDA
Right.
ASHLY
So, I think what we can do is love them and accept them for where they're at. And I think that's really the best thing we can do. And we're just learning too, what to do.
LINDA
36:42
You know, every family is different. Every family has different dynamics, my family, we are kind and gentle to a fault. All of us. We don't know how to fight. And that's good news and bad news. And so maybe that's why we're all scared of tiptoeing into anything that might be uncomfortable or whatever. But I have confidence that we'll get better at it, that over time, we'll get better at having these discussions. I'm just super grateful that the Lord has helped us do as well as we've done, that we're still able to get together. And there's great, great love. Every which way. So that's awesome.
ASHLY
So, what advice would you have for somebody that maybe just encountered material that shook their testimony? Or they're just in that place that you were when you went to bed that night and you felt that anxiety? What advice would you have for somebody in that situation?
LINDA
37:42
I would say, be patient with yourself, be patient with the Lord, be patient with the church. I think it's really an important truth that I have realized that faith is a choice. I've had people who left the church say to me, “I wish I could believe like you do, I wish I could believe.” And I've come to believe that faith and a testimony is a partnership with God. And I'm going to compare it to a garden, you could compare it to getting an education or exercising or whatever, but I'm gonna, I've just taken up gardening at this late stage of life. If I want to garden, I've got to prepare the soil, I've got to make sure there's going to be water, I've got to make sure that it's gonna have light, I've got to figure out what seeds and get them in there and be on the lookout for weeds and pests. But the important point here is that the real magic happens when God makes that happen. He's the one that provided the sun, and the water and the soil, and the seeds. And then he makes those seeds somehow turn into a watermelon or whatever. I didn't do that. And that's how faith is, that's how testimony is. I do these things that prepare the soil, in my heart. All the things you know, the praying and the repenting and forgiving, and serving and temple and all of that. That's just preparing the soil. The magic is, is what God does in our heart, that He gives us a new heart.
ASHLY
Yep.
LINDA
He sends the Holy Ghost to bear witness to us that He … I didn't know I had all these spiritual gifts that I've discovered. For instance, I didn't know until just recently looking back on the night of the storm. That I had a spiritual gift in the sense that I never once, it never occurred to me to question whether God was there. A lot of people will leave the church and leave God. And it never occurred to me to question his reality, his love, his patience with me. And that's a spiritual gift.
ASHLY
Yeah, it is.
LINDA
It was given to me somewhere along the way, maybe I was born with it. I don't know, but it's a gift. But I didn't create it, He gave it to me.
You know, even the way that I love learning about the gospel, that's a spiritual gift, I really can't take credit for that. I can take credit that I nurture the gift. Anyway, it's such a partnership. And so, if someone is struggling, I would beg them to not be too hasty. And to not expect to have it all figured out right now, to know that life is messy. The church is messy. People are messy. Our journey is messy. Church history is messy. It just is. And so I love what Stephen Harper—he’s one of the church historians. Have you've come across his stuff?
ASHLY
Mmm, I don’t think I have.
LINDA
I love him. He was a presenter on an Uplift Community.
ASHLY
Oh yeah. Yep.
LINDA
41:14
And he talks about, in his experience learning, becoming a church historian and his frustration with some of the early leaders of the church and how territorial they were with the records and stuff like that. He said, I've come to look at the leaders of the church, and the members of the church past and present with faith, hope and charity. And he went on to expand on that, which I won't do. But that's been really helpful to me to realize that everybody's human and everybody's bumbling along.
ASHLY
Yep.
LINDA
Mess of their own weaknesses in their own life in their own context. And we just need to be patient with them and with ourselves and with God, because he's got to work with our limitations.
He can't give me a download of all the answers right now. I couldn’t handle it. He’s gotta wait for me to get ready.
ASHLY
Yes.
LINDA
So, it's kind of a dance that we do together.
ASHLY
Mmhmm. I love that. I love that analogy. Um, well, do you have any other final words of wisdom that you want to leave us with tonight?
LINDA
42:26
Um, I'm just gonna— Oh, I heard something super cool. I listen to a couple of YouTube channels. One is Cwic Media, Greg Madson is his name, really like him. And another guy, Jacob Hansen. His is called Thoughtful Faith. They're both very faithful, smart people. And they came together. And were having a discussion about how we know that we know, Jacob Hansen was saying that they're both Spanish speakers. I'm not a Spanish speaker, but they were talking about how in Spanish, there are two words for ‘know’ the concept of know. There's the rational certainty, you know, the mental intellectual certainty that we would use in science or in school or something that's called saber. Conocer, it‘s more experiential, and so Jacob Hansen was saying, the difference between those like, saber, the rational certainty would be like reading a paper on love, for instance. Conocer would be holding your dying child in your arms, and experiencing that love. Both of those words speak of knowing, but it's a whole different kind of knowing.
ASHLY
Wow.
LINDA
And I so love that because in the faith crisis world, it's really a no to say, “I know the church is true.”
And I've had that struggle too because I can't say that I have saber, the rational certainty thing. Because, and oh— Jacob Hansen quoted some philosopher, which I can't think of his name right now, who spent his entire life trying to figure out what it is we're capable of knowing. He says, there's actually nothing we're capable of knowing, like saber, like, rational certainty, because even scientists, you know, their knowledge changes all the time. And what they, like for instance, they might say that they know that Mars is such and such, but they don't actually know that they haven't been to Mars. So they're trusting somebody.
ASHLY
Right.
LINDA
Right? So, I don't know that conversation was so helpful, because I can say conocer, experientially.
44:43
ASHLY
And people can’t argue with that, I mean, you have your own experiences that you have.
LINDA
Right.
ASHLY
Nobody can tell you that you didn't have that experience.
LINDA
And these two guys have the same kind of conversation that Lawrence Corbridge had at the end of that talk, where he goes through the four different ways that you come to know I don't know if you remember that, but you know, there's the logical reasoning thing, there's the experiential thing, there's the spiritual witness. There was one more I can't remember what it was, and Greg Madson has three, Jacob Hansen has five, but these different ways that we come to know, to have our testimony. And I can say now in the conocer way that I know because of those things. It's not just, you know, it's the experience it’s the witnesses of people that I admire, watching them their whole lives.
ASHLY
Yep.
LINDA
It's the reading and the studying and the … what I've shared today is obviously, it's just such a tip of the iceberg.
ASHLY
Right.
LINDA
Only God knows how much work goes on inside this head and yours too.
That makes up this knowing somehow.
46:01
ASHLY
So true. So true.
LINDA
And it's a process. And I know that right now, I'm probably on a high. And I will hit a low. That's just the way it is. And I think those lows I call those wilderness stages. They're important.
ASHLY
They are important.
LINDA
They're built into the deal, and we need them. And that's where we struggle. And that's where we find out that we are nothing and we find out that we need God and, and so I love it. I love the gospel. I love the process. I love even the painful times. It's all a gift.
ASHLY
It is. I love that so much. Well, Linda, you are so amazing. And I am just so happy that I got to have you on the podcast, after all the ups and downs of trying to get you on, and internet problems and all kinds of stuff. But you're just, you have such a light about you. And you're just so beautiful. I just have to tell you that. You are so beautiful.
LINDA
Gosh!
ASHLY
And I just am so grateful for your sweet spirit and just coming on the podcast and sharing, you know, all the things that you've experienced. And yeah, I just thank you so much.
LINDA
And I thank you. This has been very near and dear to my heart, this whole journey and I have felt a need to share it but have not known how or where. You know, you can't share something like this in a 30 second comment in Relief Society.
ASHLY
Right. Yep.
LINDA
I'm very grateful to you and I'm so grateful for your podcast, this platform. It’s so inspired, and I just eat every one of them up.
ASHLY
Well, thank you so much.
LINDA
We’ve got to keep nurturing this thing, right?
ASHLY
Yes, yes, yes. Um, I was just talking to Lauren today. And we were like, talking about how every single week we have crazy stuff going on. There are all kinds of, we’re both working mothers, but somehow every single week we manage to get the episode recorded and edited, and out every single week and it just happens.
LINDA
Well, kudos to you, and I know it's a partnership. You and God and Lauren.
ASHLY
Yes, it is. Yep. Thank you so much, Linda.
