"I went home and I was like, ‘I need to change!’ I knew it was gonna be hard. I had to change everything. So I'm like, ’Okay, I'm gonna go to church every Sunday. That is what I'm gonna start with. I don't care if I listen. I don't care if I wanna be there, but I'm starting with that because that's something I can do. I'll go to church every Sunday.’ I started with that."
Transcript
ASHLY
Holly, I am so excited to have you on the podcast. This is such a full circle moment because anyone that's listening, if you remember Mark's episode, when I interviewed Mark, I went straight to my husband's office after and I was like, “Oh my gosh, you are going to die when you hear this podcast episode.”
It was unreal. And then we just had Mark speak at our event, and so you and I got to meet in person, which was so fun. And also your dad was on the podcast, which is just so awesome. We are just keeping it in the family and I love it so much. Take a second and just tell us a little bit about you and then we can jump into your story.
HOLLY
First of all, I do wanna say I am so grateful to you for doing this. I remember Mark [00:02:00] showed me this video of a friend of his who he grew up with and went to high school with that put out this YouTube video of why he left the church. And we both looked at each other and we're like, “Gosh, we're just so tired of these videos coming up of why people left the church,” and we're like, “We need to tell people why we stayed with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” And then I heard about your podcast, so we're like, “Yay. Somebody took it and ran with it.” Because it's important. And the gospel of Jesus Christ means so much to my husband and I now.
It wasn't always that way, but it means so much to us now. There's a little bit about me. Let's see. I am a competitive pickleball player, which sounds like maybe I'm good, but no, it just means I'm competitive. I wouldn't say I'm good.
ASHLY
I love it.
HOLLY
All right. I have two kids, one from a previous relationship, and then my husband and I have a son together.
Let's see what else. I do a little bit of everything. I am currently the Relief Society president in my ward now. Which is super [00:03:00] fun. Yeah, I am originally from Florida, which I'll get to in my story, but we have lived back here in St. George for 10 years now, and I love it here.
I mean, it took me about, I don't know, three and a half years to be okay with it. It's the smallest place I've ever lived. And I've lived by a beach my entire life too, so it was a little struggle for me in the beginning, but I love it now.
ASHLY
Let's jump into your story.
HOLLY
Little trepidation here because when I share my story, normally I know who I'm sharing it with. Now I don't know, but that's okay. Anything for Jesus, right? Anything for Jesus.
ASHLY
I'll tell you at this point, I just air all my dirty laundry because, me and my husband both were like it's all out there. So you know what? When you have all the people that reach out to you and tell you how your story has helped them in their journey, it is worth it all.
HOLLY
And I believe that 'cause I see what it's done for Mark. Oh my goodness. It's just changed him even more. And so it's pretty remarkable. And it is what it is, but I don't know, maybe you feel like this too, but I look back and I'm like who was that?
ASHLY
Oh, a hundred percent.
HOLLY
I [00:04:00] know it's kind of crazy. Okay.
So I was born in the early seventies and my mom and my biological father were both kind of hippies. My biological father was kind of a non-conformist. He was a free bird, in and outta jail type of thing. And my parents got divorced when I was two years old. My dad wasn't in my life.
I didn't know my dad. So it was just me and my mom, and she was the best mom ever. We probably were dirt poor, but I had the best growing up life. She's just an amazing woman. And we were living in Mississippi at the time. I lived part of my life in Mississippi. And then the other part I graduated from high school in Florida.
So when we were in Mississippi, I think I was about three or four when my mom joined the church. She has one sister and a brother. Her brother lived in Florida and he was a member. Her sister lived in Mississippi and was not a member. And so I don't really have a lot of recollection of primary or anything like that.
My mom says we kind of went on and off, you know, she was [00:05:00] kind of lukewarm, kind of in kind of out. And then I was baptized when I was eight years old in Mississippi. And then right around teenage years, my mom decided she wanted to change, she wanted to get her life right. And so she decided to move us to Florida to be around her brother, 'cause he was strong in the church. And I was so mad at her. I was so mad at her. I lived in a very small town in Mississippi. There was probably 22, 23 kids in my class, my whole class. And I was like you are moving me to big old Florida. You know, I was really mad at her. Not too long after we moved there, she met my stepdad Bruce. And they got married and he was really strong in the church. And so that was a good thing for her. And I got used to it. In hindsight now, I think, oh, thank goodness I didn't stay in a small town. Oh my goodness. Very closed-minded.
We moved to Florida the summer before my ninth grade year, and I, of course don't know anybody and I'm craving friends, and I'm like, I [00:06:00] just don't wanna be here. So I got mixed up with the wrong friends. They weren't bad people. Their morals and standards didn't align with the church.
And so at 14 I started smoking marijuana and drinking. And that kind of set the stage for my whole high school years. All about the party. That's all I wanted to do. I thought that was what would make me happy. That's what my friends were doing. And so it, it got a little crazy there for a while.
My mom and my stepdad both worked and so I was kind of home alone. He does have a daughter, my stepdad, but she's five years younger than me and we didn't live together. And so I was the only kid at home. And so I kind of just, you know, got to do what I want. And then when they were home, I would just lie.
I became so good at lying. I'm not proud of that, but I really lied all the time to my parents. I remember this one specific time where. My best friend and I, you know, it was all nighter parties were the thing to do on the weekends. And so she said she was gonna spend the night at my house and I told my mom I was gonna spend the [00:07:00] night at her house.
And so then we have this freedom to go to this all night party and we didn't really think that through because two o'clock in the morning the party's over and we have nowhere to go to sleep. So we just made this habit of just finding random friends to go sleep at their house. And then when my parents would go to work, we would just go to my house and sleep for the rest of the day.
It was like crazy, like stupid. We weren't very smart, but we did it over and over again. When I was about 15 or so, I think it was about a year after my mom married Bruce, we got a call from my biological father, his name is George.
George had been in and out of jail. George had been in prison for about eight years for in involuntary manslaughter. And at this particular time we got a call. I don't know if it was from his sister, so I never met any of his families. But somebody had called my mom and said that he had been facing prison time again.
He had gotten arrested. And because he was an habitual criminal, he was gonna go back to prison. He had recently got remarried. His wife died in a car [00:08:00] accident. And so he was in jail. And while he was in jail, his nephew came to the jail to visit him. And George told the nephew, please bring me a gun to the funeral home, because they were gonna let him go to her funeral service.
ASHLY
Gosh.
HOLLY
He goes to the funeral. She had died, he was gonna go back to prison. And he went up to her casket and he shot himself in the heart. You know, it's interesting, Ashly, because I didn't know this man. And so I was like, “Wow, that's really sad. That's tragic.” Like no tears, nothing, you know, it was like a stranger.
But then, later on I realized, you know, that did impact my life. I just didn't know it at the time. My first thought was, “Oh, those poor people that were at the funeral home. That's horrible,” you know? So that happened around 14, 15. And I did come to learn later on in life that I did have abandonment issues, but my mom did such a great job.
She was like my [00:09:00] best friend. So then, you know, that happens. And then I just go on with high school and doing my partying thing. And then when I was 16, I went to EFY, which is the same thing as FSY. I know the older people will know it as EFY. I was living in Florida at the time, and, you know, to those of us outside of Utah, BYU was like, oh, the holy grail place, right? So I'm like, “Yes, I'm gonna go to BYU, I'm gonna go meet a lot of hot guys.” You know, this is my whole thing, this is my thought process. So I go to EFY and I meet Heather, and I'm probably gonna get a little emotional when I talk about Heather, because Heather, I don't even think she knows it, but she was very instrumental in my life.
Heather was from Southern California. She was cool. She was beautiful. She dressed, I mean, everything I didn't think I was, Heather was, and she was a strong member of the church. And so I just wanted to be good when I was around Heather. And so we had a great time at EFY. I came home and I was probably on a spiritual high.
I didn't really have my [00:10:00] own testimony at this point. I mean, we would go to church, but that's because we would go to church—that's what you do. I went to seminary only because my aunt was the teacher and you don't say no to her. So I went to seminary because of that. But I can remember leaving seminary, driving to high school and going to get a cup of coffee on the way to high school.
So I wasn't really building a testimony. But I think EFY was the start of the seed of my testimony, 'cause I felt something there. And Heather was just amazing. She wasn't a Molly Mormon. And I was like, okay, so you can be good and cool too, you know. So I go back home and the high wears off.
I go back to my old friends, the same old thing, graduate high school. And I am deciding to go to college, and BYU Idaho (Ricks at the time) was the only place that I could go. 'cause my grades were terrible. High school was a social thing for me. That was it. Heather and I decide to room [00:11:00] together at Ricks and I'm like, yes, this'll be awesome.
Didn't think this through, 'cause I'm thinking, you go to college, and party girls, they party harder in college 'cause your parents aren't there. You don't have to lie. You can do whatever you want to. I didn't do any of that 'cause of Heather. I wanted to be good because of Heather. So, I went to college and I didn't party at all.
I didn't do anything that I normally would do, and she was just such, such a good influence on me. And so, I spend three semesters there. Coming to Rexburg, Idaho from Florida was brutal because it's freaking cold there and I hated it.
So three semesters into college, I was going to be a dancer. That was my goal. Silly goal. So I took a lot of dancing and acting classes at Ricks and maybe a few core classes, I don't really remember. So in three semesters, by that fourth semester, I wasn't gonna graduate with my associates. And so that Christmas, three semesters in, I'm like, I'm out, I'm done.
I can't do this cold anymore. I'm leaving. So I went back home to Florida and what do you think happened? [00:12:00] Fell into the same habits. I met this girl that I worked with and she took partying into the next level. Boy, I started doing harder drugs. I started clubbing, which I love dancing. And so club, I was like, I have hit like this is heaven.
Like I'm going clubbing every weekend, dancing. This is amazing. And at 19 years old, I find myself unmarried and pregnant and I'm like. Oh my gosh, what am I gonna do? I don't mean to offend anybody that's done this, but I have never been one to think, “Oh, you have to get married when you get pregnant.”
I just have never believed in that. I don't know why. I just don't think that's a reason to get married, you know? And so I wasn't going to marry my boyfriend at the time. It was kind of rocky. It's not like we were gonna be this big happy family, you know? And so that wasn't an option.
Abortion wasn't an option for me. I never once thought about that, and I had no idea what I was going to do. I knew it was adoption or keep this child, and I did not know what to do. And I don't know why I was [00:13:00] so adamant about doing the right thing at this point, because up until now I had not been doing the right thing.
But I so badly wanted to do the right thing in this situation. And I can remember begging my mom, begging her, “Please make this decision for me. I don't know what to do.” And she's so amazing. She's like, “I can't do that for you. This is your decision, and me and Bruce will support you in whatever you decide, but this is your decision.”
So I got down on my knees for the first time in my entire life and I prayed and prayed because I knew that God would tell me what to do. I knew that much. I knew that He knew what was best. And so I got my answer. And that answer was to place the baby for adoption. And so at the time, that was a closed adoption through LDS Social Services.
And so I got my social worker, we went through the motions and we started the process and I don't know how many months in, seven months in or so I had to choose a family for this child. [00:14:00] And I was like, are you kidding me? How am I supposed to do that? It's closed. I don't get to meet these people. I don't get to talk to them face to face.
I had to pick a family that my child would go to from a book. And I was like how, how can I do this? I got down on my knees again and I prayed and I was like. Heavenly father, I know that I am not supposed to keep her. I knew that, you know, as hard as that was, I knew that was the right thing.
So I prayed, and then one day I am flipping through the book that I had flipped through a hundred times, and I come to this page and Ashly, it was like, it was glowing, it was highlighted, it was golden. And I was like, okay that's the family. And I knew it. And I had zero doubts. Now I carried this child for nine months and I felt her kick and grow.
And at the hospital, you know, I had until the very last minute to sign the papers. So I had her, I got to hold her, I got to feed her. I dressed her in her [00:15:00] little outfit. I bought her. And the next day I signed the papers and I left that hospital empty handed. And I was broken. I was broken. I was like, I can't do this.
And, you know, all the emotions set in. And three days later I called my social worker and I said, I made a mistake. I made a mistake. I want her back. You know, and he was very loving. And he's like, I understand this is normal, but you have signed your parental rights away. You know, you have already done that.
And I knew in my heart it was the right thing to do, but that was very, very painful. And so life went on. I healed from that and I'm working and trying to figure out what I'm gonna do. And you would've thought I would've learned my lesson.
But I did not. And this is where I think the whole abandonment issue comes in, because I realized, and I said the words out loud when I was 47 years old, that, oh my gosh, my father abandoned me. And it took me up until 47 to [00:16:00]realize that I did have issues with that, and that I was looking for acceptance and love from men.
That's what I was doing. And so three years later, after I placed that precious little girl for adoption, I find myself pregnant and unmarried again. And I'm like, oh my goodness,, and my sin was a sin everybody could see. And so it's not like you can hide it. And so I thought, well I am not going through that adoption thing again.
I am going to keep this child and I need to get my life right. And so that's how I got my precious daughter and she would be instrumental. And the Lord knows what he's doing, because she saved my life, that daughter. That daughter that I have now saved my life.
So I go on and I have a child now and I'm half in the church, half partying. I'm still clubbing. And I meet this guy Monster, who Mark talked about, so I gotta talk about Monster. But he was a bouncer at a [00:17:00] club that I had frequented, and I was like, infatuated with this man.
He was like huge. He was six five, he was a bouncer, he was a football player and I didn't know it at the time, but he was a drug dealer too. So we start dating and now I'm dating a drug dealer and I'm going on drug deals with him, and I'm living this life of craziness. I can remember one time we drove to Orlando to do a drug deal, and it was like an hour and a half.
And the only reason why I'm sharing these things, is because I look back and I'm like, you were absolutely bonkers. You were bananas. You were crazy. And so it does get better. I do come around, but we had gone to this drug deal and I mean, I guess this is what you do when you're a drug dealer.
You do the drugs with the person that you're selling 'em to. 'Cause I don't know, maybe that was then, they wanna know you're not selling them crap. I don't know. So we're both high and we drive back and there's a causeway, a bridge that connects Tampa to Clearwater in Clearwater, where I lived.
And we're driving across this causeway at two in the morning and [00:18:00]Monster has a gun in his car. And I'm like, oh cool. You know, we're high. And I pulled the gun out and I was like, Hey, can I shoot the gun? He's driving. He's like, sure. So I point the gun out the window into the darkness of the ocean and I start firing the gun.
Thinking, nothing of it, thinking, oh, that was cool. You know, not thinking. There could have been a night fisherman out there, like I could be on Dateline, or something like that. But to me it was just the thrill, and I just did stupid stuff like that all of the time. (And Monster is not his real name. I'm not gonna say his real name, but he did have a real name.)
ASHLY
Mark talks about this when he spoke at our event, the Come Back to Christ event. And that video is on YouTube. So if you want Mark's version of Monster, then check it out on YouTube.
HOLLY
Yes. Mark has a version of Monster too. But anyway, so I just continued doing those things and then I break up with Monster and then I think around this time I start massage school 'cause I'm [00:19:00] like, I need to have a career. I've gotta support this kid. What am I gonna do? And I didn't want a nine-to-five job. So I go to massage school and then I meet this other guy and he's a Greek guy. And we start dating. We dated for two years, but a year into this relationship, I'm still doing all the things, not living a life conducive to the church, and I would go to church on and off, but I mean, I'm a fence setter at this time.
I've got one foot in the church, one foot in the world. I go to church this one day and around this time, my daughter's about two years old and I go to church and I don't even know, what the lesson was, but this scripture that was read hit me like a ton of bricks and it was Doctrine in Covenants 68:25.
And that's the scripture that talks about the parents in Zion have to teach your children about Jesus Christ at eight and laying on the hands. And if you don't teach your children, the sins are gonna be on the heads of the parents. And I was like. Whoa. Like it hit me and I was like, “Oh, I'm gonna be in [00:20:00] trouble.”
If I don't teach her I'm gonna be in trouble. Obviously, I was gonna be in trouble with God for all the things that I was doing to myself, but now I'm gonna ruin this child's life. I cannot do that. And so I went home and I was like, I need to change. I knew it was gonna be hard.
I had to change everything. I know you know this. And I had to change everything about my life. So I'm dating this guy and my first thing, I was like, okay, I had to wrap my head around something. So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna go to church every Sunday. That is what I'm gonna start with. I don't care if I listen.
I don't care if I wanna be there, but I'm starting with that because that's something I can do. I'll go to church every Sunday. I started with that.
So I have this boyfriend, we're a year into this relationship, and I'm like, “Hey, listen. I need to make some changes in my life and this is what I'm gonna be doing and this is all the things we're not gonna be doing. And so I understand if that's not okay with you, this is not what you signed up for. I'm very prepared to walk away from this [00:21:00] relationship, but this is something I have to do.” And he was like, “Okay, cool.” So he started taking the missionary discussions and I was like—
ASHLY
What?
HOLLY
—I know, but I was like, “Do not do this for me. You have to do this for you. I'm prepared to walk away from this and you need to be okay with that too, if this is not what you want.”
So he started taking the missionary discussions. He got baptized, but then that relationship fell apart. And guess what? He never went back to church. But that's okay. The seed was planted there for him. That was around when my daughter was two, and that relationship, I needed to kind of get away from that person.
My parents had transferred to New York, for a job. And so when my daughter was two, I'm like, all right, I gotta make a fresh start. I need to leave all of this behind. So I moved to New York, and so me and my daughter lived with them in New York. And I didn't have any friends, so I stayed on the straight and narrow, 'cause I didn't get into trouble or anything. And I really started working on my spiritual [00:22:00] self. And I started going to church and I started liking going to church and feeling the Spirit and, you know, all those times when I was drinking and doing drugs and I thought I was having fun. That is such a lie.
It is such a lie because at the end of the night, you are left lonely and you're in despair and you're in pain it doesn't go away.
ASHLY
And it's almost like a homesick feeling.
HOLLY
Yes.
ASHLY
You have been living that party lifestyle, and you wake up and you're just, and it's like you're so empty inside. It's like this homesick feeling.
HOLLY
That's a good way to describe it. I didn't know it at the time that it was the homesick feeling. Right. I know now. I decided to go to dental hygiene school when I was living in New York with my parents. I was doing good. I was living a good life.
I met a guy, and this was a “what were you thinking!?” thing. I'm not gonna go deeply into this story, because it was a bad idea. But he was a member of the church and he had a temple recommend, but we wanted to get married quick, [00:23:00] so we just got married civilly. I went out to visit him.
He was living in Indiana and we're like, let's get married. Okay. So we went to the Justice of the Peace. And by this time, I had gone through the temple myself and taken out my own endowment. I'm like, I'm doing this. I can raise this kid by myself. I can do all the things by myself.
So I was getting pretty strong. And so we got married, and he was basically a con artist. I started finding out things that were like, whoa. Like it was like the rug had been pulled out from underneath me. He had gotten a PO box to send all our mail there. He was living this double life.
And every time I would confront him with things that I found out, he would be like, “Oh, it's your fault.” Everything was always my fault. He was not accountable for anything. And he would come home and be like, “I don't think I could love you like a husband should love a wife,” and “Oh, your weight bothers me.”
I'd gained like five pounds. I was skinny. And he's like, “Oh, your weight bothers me. I'm not attracted to you.” This went on for like two weeks back and [00:24:00] forth until finally I was like, “What the H am I doing? I'm done with this. You're not gonna string me along like this.”
I called my parents and I'm like, come get me. I'm done. So they drove from New York to Indiana, packed up everything. Me and Olivia went back to New York. That was two weeks after September 11th happened. So it was a crazy time to be in New York. And so we went back to New York, and that's when I started dental hygiene school and I was really good.
I was the only member of the church in my whole class of 40 girls. Dental hygiene school was extremely stressful. That was so hard. And every time we would take a test, they would all go to the bar, right? And get drunk, and release, and I would go a couple of times just to be part of the class, you know?
But I knew that if I continued to go, I couldn't do that. I couldn't do that because I would start drinking again. I wasn't an alcoholic or a drug addict or anything. Honestly, I don't know how that did not happen, because I do have an addictive personality.
By the grace of God, I guess, I don't know. But I do remember one slip up in hygiene school, [00:25:00] and I don't think any of my family knows this part, but we had gone to a conference in Pennsylvania and I was so stressed about this program we all went out and I got wasted, and I woke up the next day, and the guilt and shame was more than any guilt and shame I had ever experienced. I was like, “I have gone through the temple, what am I doing? I can't do that.” I went home. I think I probably talked to my bishop about that, 'cause I was like, I gotta clear my conscience. I can't.
That was mid-twenties, I think 27, 28. That was the last time I had touched drugs, alcohol, anything. I go back, I graduate dental hygiene school and you know, life is good. Life is really good. And I do wanna add though, that just because you're being obedient and you're doing all the things you're supposed to and you're changing your life, you're still gonna have trials.
Because that first marriage, oh boy. After that, I went home to New York and I was in a three month depression. I was like, I'm doing all the things right. He was a member of the church. I went through the temple, but I never blamed God because I realized that people are [00:26:00] people and they're fallible. God's perfect.
Jesus Christ is perfect. So I came out of that. Now it's time to figure out what I'm gonna do for the rest of my life, decide that I want to move to Summerlin, which is outside of Vegas. It's a nice, beautiful area in Vegas. I thought, you know, I can't raise a child in New York. It's way too expensive at this time.
There's not a lot of members of the church. I do want a priesthood holder. I'm not moving to Utah. That's out of the question. I had visited a friend who lived in Summerlin and fell in love. Everything was new and beautiful and it was warm there and there was lots of members of the church.
And so I'm like, that's it. I'm moving to Summerlin. So I start trying to prepare and I'm hitting obstacle after obstacle. I'm like, what the heck? Why is this not working out, Heavenly Father? I want to do this so I can marry a good member of the church, and take care of my daughter.
And one of the biggest obstacles was taking my boards for my profession. Now, when I graduated hygiene school, I took the boards there at the school I went to in New York. And that was the [00:27:00] Northeast Regional Board. And the only places that I could move and not have to take the board again, were in the New England area.
I was like let me move back to Florida. Nope. Have to take another board. Okay, let me move to Summerlin. Nope. Have to take another board. And I was like, I do not wanna have to. That was crazy stress. I don't wanna have to take another board. So I kept pushing for Summerlin, pushing, trying to find a way.
Nothing's working out. So I was like well, I guess I better pray about this, see what God wants me to do. So I pray and I get the prompting to move to Utah. And I was like, “Absolutely not. I'm not moving to Utah. I've never lived in Utah. I don't wanna be around the Utah Mormons,” was my thought at the time.
I have repented of that. I was like, no way. So I'm looking through this professional licensing thing. I have gone through this so many times trying to figure out where I could move and not have to take the board. And guess what state was on there: Utah. I did not have [00:28:00] to take the boards again, and I could move right to Utah and start working as a hygienist.
And I was like, you have got to be kidding me. I do not wanna do that. And so obviously, at this point in my life, I'm learning, “Holly, just do what the Lord wants you to do. It works out way better.” And so I came to terms with it, packed up my car. Me and my daughter, she was 10 at the time, drove to Bountiful Utah, where I knew one person.
And we set up shop in Bountiful, Utah. And six months later I met my husband Mark, and I knew that the Lord led me there for him. Fun fact, I'm nine years older than Mark, and so he was in a different part of life. I'm a single mom trying to find a job and raise a kid.
He's in pre-pharm, you know, trying to get his pre-reqs for pharmacy school. We would've never met each other. I went on this site to try to find dentists and hygienists to network with, to try to find a job. He went on there to find a wife, I guess.
I don't know. [00:29:00] So he messaged me, and I was like this is weird. You're not a dentist, and he was the exact opposite—I mean, you got six-foot-five black monster and you got five-foot-six white Mark. And I was like this is not my norm here.
So for whatever the reason, I was like, gosh, sure, why not? And, the one thing that intrigued me about Mark is that every other guy had an agenda. There was always an agenda with the men I dated. I was like, there's gotta be an agenda with this guy. But it was “What you see is what you get” with him.
And I was determined to figure out what the agenda was. That's why I kept dating, and then fell in love and got married. At this time, I'm really active in church, and I'm really feeling the Spirit, and I am really grasping the concept of how Jesus Christ works in your life. Right?
And so I leave that whole world behind, and we moved to Florida when Mark graduated pharmacy school. [00:30:00] This is kind of where his story fits in. I'll just talk a little bit about that, but it is important because I got to a point before I met Mark where I was like, I am not messing up again.
I will live the rest of my life as a single mom and raise this child by myself. But I am doing this right the next time and I'm staying close to Jesus Christ. And that's when I met Mark, and we did get married in the Bountiful Temple. We moved to Florida, and your life isn't gonna be perfect just because you're obeying the principles of the gospel.
You're gonna have trials. But I'm gonna tell you right now, it is way better to go through trials with Jesus Christ on your side than it is with him not.
ASHLY
Absolutely.
HOLLY
I mean, I don't know how people do it. I really don't know how people do it. And so we move to Florida and our marriage is just, it's empty. I'm like, what is the deal here? Is this what it's supposed to be like? I prayed for confirmation. I know I'm supposed to be with this man. I used to be like, “I don't know if you're happy, if you're sad, if you're angry,” 'cause he had one face, that was it. One face for all the [00:31:00] things.
So I'm like, what is going on? Are you okay? And he just kept telling me, I'm okay. Everything's fine. What could I do? I had no choice but to believe him. So I'm like I guess this is what marriage is like and I better just stick it out because here's my life. You know? Until the day I got a call and he had been arrested, and was in the jail, and I was like, I'm sorry. You're aware, like you're in jail. I'm the one who had the past, right? I'm the one who did all the stupid things, you know, driving high, doing all these stupid things. He never had a speeding ticket. He never said a swear word in his life.
And he's the one that's in jail. I was like, this is not right. And he told me, you know, they've accused me of something. I didn't do it. We'll figure it out. And I was like, absolutely, I believe you. Of course you didn't do anything wrong because you're like the golden child, you know?
And so I go get him from jail, and we come home and he's like, “We will work it out. We've gotta get an attorney,” you know, all of that. And I was like, “What did they accuse you of doing?” And he's, “They said I was taking money, and I'm not taking money.” [00:32:00] I'm like, rallying all the forces behind him. And so we get his criminal attorney. And it's time to go meet with her. So he's like, “I think I'll meet with her by myself.” And I was like “That doesn't sound like a good idea, 'cause what are you gonna tell her that you're not telling me?” Red flags were flying for me. I'm like, “You're not a very smart criminal, Mark. You're not a very smart liar. You can't tell your wife you're gonna go meet with the attorney by yourself.”
And I told him, this was a pivotal moment in my life and his, and I said, “Listen, if you have done something wrong, you need to tell me. We can work through this. If you tell me,” because my ex-husband never admitted anything was wrong. And I'm like, “I'm not going through that again. So you tell me if you've done something wrong and we can work through it, but if you continue to lie to me, I'm leaving.”
And he just looked at me and he was like, and then it just all spilled out and I was like, oh my gosh. The pornography, the [00:33:00] embezzlement, basically is what he was doing, all of it. And I was like. Oh my gosh. Okay. Okay. You know, so the shock sets in , I mean, I never been arrested.
I don't know, I didn't even know how to bail him outta jail. I called my uncle who used to be a cop, and I'm like, how do I do this? What do we do? And he came with me to get him outta jail. And I'm like, all right, that's fine. So we meet with the attorney. She says he has to plead guilty.
I think she kind of messed us up a little bit. She didn't do her job. She and I got into a screaming match in the court, and it was just ugly. It was all ugly. He gets his, sentence, his felonies, all of that stuff. And we lose everything. We lose everything. Our home, we had this beautiful home.
Our savings, the 401k, everything is gone. His parents had to send us money. My mom had to send us money. We were on church assistance, we were on state assistance. let me tell you, there were many times where I was like, I did not sign up for this. I did not sign up for this. But I kept [00:34:00] going.
And I'll tell you why. There's two reasons why I stuck with my husband. And one of 'em was he was accountable for what he had done wrong and he was repentant and he was showing the steps of someone who truly felt bad for what he had done. And I had made him covenants, and I was like, “I promised God. I promised him and I promised God that I would stick to this.”
And I'm like, I've gotta do this. I've gotta stick with this. And it was so hard. Mark went through a depression, and I got so angry at him 'cause I was like, “How dare you be depressed? You are the reason we are in this mess. You don't get to be depressed,” 'cause I was the one that had to hold the family together.
I was the one that had to make the decisions and I was so resentful of that for a very long time. He started working through it and, bless his heart, goes from working as a pharmacist to cleaning carpets and delivering pizzas. And we had no money and this is where my addictive personality comes in, because I had just gone from drinking, and then [00:35:00] shopping. When he graduated pharmacy school, I was like, “Whoa, we got all this money.” So I started shopping, so I do have a little culpability in him embezzling, 'cause he couldn't tell me no. And he is like, “I gotta keep up this lifestyle?” So once we had no money, I turned to food, and over that period of time where we lived in Florida, I gained a hundred pounds. I blamed him for every single pound I gained because I'm like, it's your fault.
It's your fault that I look like this. So now I'm a hundred pounds overweight. My husband's depressed. We have no money. We were living with my grandmother, me and my husband and our 2-year-old son shared one room. My daughter was in my grandmother's room and she slept on the couch. It was a like 1500 square foot home.
And I was like, this Heavenly Father, this is your plan for me. That's not fair. I've done all the right things, you know? And then Mark started coming out of all of this and I started to see the light and I started to go through [00:36:00] this forgiveness process. And that is not linear.
Forgiveness is not linear at all, 'cause I would be like this and then something would happen and it was like a domino effect. And I would go, “But you are the reason why this has happened. If you didn't do that, this would've never …” you know, and so the whole forgiveness thing took a long time. It took a really long time.
And Mark was like, “Clean slate.” When he says he was a clean slate, he means it. Like, if the apostles don't look like this, I'm gonna look like them. If they're not watching this, I'm not watching that. And that worked for him. That doesn't work for everybody.
The shows and things that Mark used to watch, like he talks about Dexter and all these shows that glorify robbing, casinos and living this cool life. We would watch together, and the movie would be over, and I'd be like, okay, let's go eat popcorn, or, you know, whatever.
But his mind is working like this. I just wanna put that little disclaimer in there, because that doesn't affect everybody [00:37:00] that way. And so everybody doesn't need to run out and shave their beards and cut their hair. That's just what my husband knew he needed to do, because that's where his pride stepped in years before, where he is like, “I don't have to cut my hair to be a good member of the church.”
It's not about the hair, it's about the feeling behind it, you know? And what you want to be and portray. Life was really awful for a very long time. A very long time. And I think for me, if I hadn't come back to Jesus Christ, I would not be with my husband. I would've been out.
I would've been like, “No way. I'm not going through this. I did nothing wrong here.” And I've come to realize, it really was another kind of pivotal moment for me. You know, I can't blame him for making a mistake. The Atonement is for him, just like it's for me.
It's not sins one through five the Atonement is good for, and six through 10–nope, sorry, doesn't apply to you. And so that was really a big moment for me [00:38:00] 'cause I had friends that would be like “I would leave him. I wouldn't be doing this.” And I'm like, ”You know what would Jesus do? Really? What would Jesus do? He would love him and embrace him.” And that's exactly what I did, is I loved and embraced my husband. Because he was showing that he wanted to change.
And I looked back on my life and I was like, “Okay, let's see. I had two children outta wedlock. I did drugs and drank alcohol. I lied. I didn't steal. That's maybe the one thing I didn't do, but just because he stole doesn't mean anything, you know?”
ASHLY
I also wanna point out really quickly that Mark is literally one of the most genuine, he just radiates the light of Christ.
HOLLY
He does.
ASHLY
You would not have any idea. And I think that is what just makes hearing your story, hearing your side of all of this, anyone that's listening to this, it is a must to go listen to Mark's episode, because [00:39:00] he is such a good human being and he just radiates goodness.
HOLLY
That is so true, Ashly. And that was the other part of it all. I was like, he is a good man. He just didn't know how to express the things he was going through because he was the perfect kid his whole life; he couldn't make that not true. He couldn't share those things because people would be like, “What? Mark?”
And after people found out, they were like, “What? Mark?” You know, because it was like out of all the people, him. You know, but I really feel strongly, and that's why I absolutely love, love, love your podcast is because we, as members of the church, are not perfect. Can we please stop pretending we are?
Can we please just stop that? That is a very dangerous thing to portray because there are gonna be people that need to hear what you have to say. Like with Mark, he was the [00:40:00] perfect child. Well, no he wasn't. He was one you needed to worry about, but on the outside, nobody worried about him. So if we share the things that we've been through, I mean, I have shared with my children.
So that is something I really believed my whole life. And I mean, our son knows about all of this. He's 15, so he knows a lot about the things that I've done. And I don't go into graphic detail, and I have told my kids and say, “There's nothing you can do that A- will make me stop loving you. And B- that you cannot come back to Jesus from. Nothing. It doesn't matter. And it's funny because my daughter, she would come to me and be like, “Mom, I need to talk to you.” And I'd be like, “What? You're pregnant? You're gay? What? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what you say to me. I love you. Work through it.”
And it was never either of those things, you know? It was just very important for me, for my children to know it does not matter what you do. It matters where you're going. You know? And you can always come back from that. Anything, you know?
[00:41:00] Now I am the Relief Society president, and Mark talked about how he was the Elders Quorum president, my life is so filled with joy. I'm not just happy. I have joy in my life. I literally wake up days and be like, how do I get to live this?
ASHLY
Oh my.
HOLLY
It's amazing. It's not perfect.
ASHLY
Right?
HOLLY
You know, we still have problems, lots of 'em, but they're so diminished with Jesus in our life. They're like this. Even the big ones. They're little. And the joy we experience, Mark and I literally Have some sort of conversation about the Savior almost daily. We just, it's just a daily part of our life.
We talk to our son about Jesus all the time. We talk about how friends matter and how your choices matter, but it doesn't matter what you do because Jesus Christ has always got your back. Always. When people say they leave the church, it makes me so sad. 'Cause I'm like, “Are you leaving Jesus?”
'Cause that's kind of what you're saying is that you're leaving [00:42:00] Jesus, you know. Don't leave Jesus. He's got you. There's a culture in the church that is not what I subscribe to. I don't subscribe to that,
ASHLY
Subscribed to a typical culture, then you wouldn't be coming on this podcast and sharing all the things that you've gone through in your life with, I think last I looked, there's 77,000 podcast listeners,
HOLLY
Yeah. And let me tell you, I play—hi girls—but I play pickleball with a lot of girls. They live in Little Valley. They're from Utah—that don't know anything about this. And you know what? It's okay.
ASHLY
And you know what? They are gonna love you even more because you have shared your story. And that is the coincidental thing here is that we are so afraid to share all the things that we go through 'cause we're afraid of being judged or whatever. But the truth is, when you can open up about your struggles, it creates this connection with people that you cannot get [00:43:00]otherwise.
My husband and I were in our 12 Step meeting last night and it was step two: We believe that God can restore us to sanity. And I was thinking, you know, isn't it such a gift that we are able to go through trials and rely on the Savior and experience his atoning sacrifice in our lives and what that looks like for us.
It is a gift, like looking back on all these hard things like, you know, all the hard things that we went through from your adoption to everything with Mark to Monster … Because of all of those things, you were able to experience the Savior’s love and such a real way in your life.
And now it's every day he's front and center, every day and it's actually a gift. And obviously we're not advocating for going and making
HOLLY
No.
ASHLY
choices. Life is full of problems anyways. But that is the gift in the problems, is that we can view them [00:44:00] as agents for growth, and as a way to connect on a deeper level with our Savior.
HOLLY
100%. And to experience the Atonement, like a palpable experience with the Atonement is a gift. It is a remarkable gift because sometimes I think about my life and I think about, “Man, I wasted all that time and I could be living like this with all this joy in my heart and this love for people.”
And then the next thought, I'm like, but then I wouldn't be where I am wouldn't be so precious to me.
ASHLY
Right?
HOLLY
You know, because I felt the Savior's Atonement. I've seen it and I've felt it in my life and I've seen it, and I've felt it in my husband's life. And that is priceless. It really is. My stepdad Bruce, I remember one time when I told him, when I really got back into church and I had my own endowment taken out, and I'm like, “I am never leaving the church again.” And he's like, “Be careful. You still have to be vigilant.”
And he's so right because I cannot [00:45:00] sit back and be relaxed and coast through life now. And my relationship with Jesus Christ is so strong now. He is my friend. Like he is literally my friend and I have such a relationship with Him, and I'm telling you, I want everybody to have that. It's not about what you can and can't do. It's not about the culture of the church. It's about living Jesus Christ’s gospel in this life. You will find joy no other place. I am telling you that from experience.
I mean, if I could beat this into my kids, I would because you can't find it anywhere else. You know, I still have problems. I still have heartache, but I mean, it's like a little bump in the road. Something that would be catastrophic normally is literally a bump in the road because of the Savior, and I would not live my life, I would not go back to that.
You could not pay me enough [00:46:00] money to go back to that life, because you know, my marriage, I know I would've waited an eternity for this man. Even all the crap we went through, I would've waited an eternity for him because the marriage we have, it's almost not fair that we have a marriage this good. It really is. You know what I mean?
I'll have friends that'll tell me about their husbands and their marriage, and I'm just like, “Oh gosh, I'm really sorry. It doesn't have to be that way.” Like we don't argue. My husband has never raised his voice to me. People don't believe that. When I say we've never had a fight in 17 years, we've never had a fight.
Now, part of that was because he was emotionless. I mean, 'cause I used to try to pick fights with him on purpose, to get a reaction. To be like, “Am I the only one here?” Now we don't fight because we have no reason to. We disagree on things, but we both focus our lives, each of us individually on Jesus Christ. If you wanna rock solid marriage, then that's what you need to [00:47:00]do.
I mean, you can go to therapy. I'm in therapy. Everybody should be in therapy. But nobody's gonna tell you the answer. I'm gonna tell you the answer. I'm not a marriage therapist, I'm not a counselor.
You know, you gotta live your own life. But I'm telling you, for me, that's the only way you each have to center your life on Jesus Christ. Because if you don't, selfishness and pride and all of that will creep into your marriage and drive a wedge, and then you won't even recognize why you married that person.
And we have a saying in my household. My saying is, “I don't care what the question is, Jesus is the answer.”
ASHLY
Oh, I love that.
HOLLY
That's just how I live my life. It doesn't matter. Like, why is this person doing this? Why are they … Jesus is the answer. They need Jesus in their life. And I've had people say, “Well, I don't need to go to church.”
And I'm like, “Oh, but you do.” But you do, because that's where I live, to go to church, to be around these people who believe the same thing as I do. Because I learn something every single time I go to church from somebody. And these [00:48:00] podcasts, we are here for each other. We need to learn from each other.
And that's why I go to church. That, and to take the sacrament. I mean, yes, you can go in the mountain and have a relationship with God, but if you wanna level that up, you need to be in church around people who believe the same thing. It says it in the scriptures, you know, we need to be as one and unified.
And I just, I freaking love my life. I really love my life.
ASHLY
You are such a powerhouse. What an honor to have you on the podcast.
HOLLY
Stop. It's my honor. You're the one that actually did something about the people saying they were leaving the church. Mark and I are just like, “What should we do?”
ASHLY
Just a plug for our event. Again. you and your dad and Mark and just, oh my gosh. It was so incredible to hear from Mark again and have you guys there. We're just like kindred spirits.
HOLLY
I just wanted to tell you, like after that event, Ashly, and I don't mean this in a blasphemous way, this is just my [00:49:00] personality, but Mark was literally on Jesus crack. He was off the hook. The man never shut up for five days later. We would be laying in bed, it'd be like 11:30. I'm trying to go to sleep. He'd be like, “Are you awake? I wanna talk about this. I have a prompting about this. Are you awake?” And I'm like, “Babe, let's just go to sleep. Okay.”
ASHLY
I have to say that we felt the same way.
HOLLY
Amazing.
ASHLY
I am like a big napper, like I like to take a midday nap because I get up really early to go to the gym, and just like a 15 minute nap … No naps for me for a week. I just was so just energized and just, oh my gosh. It was incredible.
HOLLY
That's how he was. I honestly don't think he slept well for five days straight.
ASHLY
Yeah. Yeah.
HOLLY
His mind was going, he was receiving all kinds of promptings. He was sharing things at work. He works out in Colorado City. I [00:50:00] know like after 15 years of not picking up the Book of Mormon, because he shared with a coworker, she started reading the Book of Mormon again. But that's a ripple effect, Ashly, from what you have started.
ASHLY
I mean, you're so sweet. I literally cannot take the credit. 0%. God, just, He has put us imperfect humans together. That's the whole reason we're here, is because this is evidence of Jesus in our lives and how He can completely transform, and that's the whole purpose.
HOLLY
I do find myself looking at people around me, you know, not in a judgmental way, but just kinda like, “Oh, if you would just do this, your life would be so much better.” Just do this one thing, you know?
It comes from a place of love. Can you imagine if we all felt this way? Oh wow. The world would be a better place. I work in the temple on Friday mornings, and I leave the temple, and I'm like, “Oh man, why do I gotta go out in the lone and dreary world again?”
You know? It's like, why can't we all [00:51:00] just be like we are in the temple? You know? We're here for a reason, and let's grasp that. And the Savior can help with everything. You know, therapy does have its place. I am a big proponent of therapy, but gosh, I just love Jesus Christ so much, and I love that my husband does too, because we are literally parallel moving in this life and there is nothing better.
ASHLY
Holly, you are amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I'm overjoyed that you're able to come on and share your story. You're such a beautiful person inside and out, and I just love your family, and I'm so grateful to have you guys be a part of the Come Back Podcast family.
HOLLY
It's been a joy to be with you and I can't wait for the next event. So thank you, and keep up the good work. This is amazing.