"I studied and I prayed, and I screamed at God, and I sobbed in the shower. When you realize you don't know what you believe anymore and that potentially everything that you have believed and you've built your life on and you've built your eternity, when that's suddenly gone, you are like, “I don't know who I am.” I just felt like I was in just absolute misery. I didn't know what was up. I didn't know what was down. I knew that I was a good person. I knew I had values, I knew that he had values and was a good person, but I needed structure, I needed direction." -Jillian Deaton
Transcript
ASHLY
You are gonna wanna check out our YouTube video of this episode. Jillian is an ASL interpreter and she has interpreted this entire episode for the hard of hearing community, and it is so beautiful. So be sure to check it out on our YouTube channel.
This episode is brought to you by Brick House Recovery. Some of you may recognize that name. We had Brick House's owner Jason Coombs on the podcast, and he is such a great guy. Brick House Recovery is a distinguished and compassionate addiction recovery center. Celebrated for its unique and effective approach to overcoming addiction.
Awarded Idaho's Best in Mental Wellness for the last three years and consistently recognized as one of the best places to work in Idaho. Brick House Recovery's reputable standing [00:01:00] reflects its dedication to the highest standards of care and the wellbeing of its clients. Jason wrote the book, Unhooked.
If you have not checked out his book, you need to. It is so incredible. It gives you a framework for being able to navigate having a loved one that is addicted. Check out their website@brickhouserecovery.com.
ASHLY
Jillian, it is such an honor to have you on the podcast. I am so excited, we got so many story submissions and so it's taken me like a little bit to get yours and read it, but when I read it, I emailed you immediately and I was like, “She needs to be on the podcast.” I think your story will resonate with so many people. What you had described in your story, there were a lot of people during that time that really went through similar things. And so I am so excited to have you on the podcast. Let's start with a little bit about you before we jump in.
JILLIAN
Well thank you for that. It's really nice to meet you. I've seen your face a lot. It's [00:02:00] very surreal to have you talking back to me. I grew up in Mesa, Arizona, I grew up in the church. I lived in the same ward for like 14, 15 years and it really felt like a family.
I've been married for 11 years. My husband and I met on a blind date. So that was kind of fun. We have two kiddos together. We've kind of bounced around. Mostly lived in Arizona. We lived in Oklahoma City for a short period, then back to Arizona. Then we moved to Seattle for a while, which I really thought that we were gonna live there forever.
And then plans changed and we moved to the East Coast and I'll get into that. But yeah, I'm a professional certified ASL interpreter, and I love that job so much. It's more than a job. It's part of my identity.
ASHLY
Where do you do interpreting?
JILLIAN
I've kind of done a little bit of everything. Right now. I'm doing a lot of work from home. I contract with a large tech company, and so I'm just assigned to one deaf [00:03:00] employee and I just follow them around to all of their meetings. It's really challenging, but I love it.
I work freelance, so I'm with a few different agencies. Jobs will come through in my email and I'll decide if I wanna take it or not. I've gotten to do a lot of really cool jobs. I've done really big concerts. I've done fancy events here in Manhattan, and non fancy events, like doctor's appointments. Just kind of everything.
So, yeah, it's really fun.
ASHLY
What kind of led you in that direction?
JILLIAN
My oldest brother and I are about 10 years apart, and when he was in high school, he met a girl who he is now married to, and they have a really beautiful family. She's an ASL interpreter, and her sister is deaf. That was just my first exposure. I think I was like five years old or so when I met the two of them, and it just really spoke to me in a way that I couldn't articulate. Then I took ASL [00:04:00] in high school, picked it up really quickly and just decided this is what I'm gonna do.
So we joke that ASL was kind of the reason why we got married because it was a blind date. But at one point I told him that I was in school to be an ASL interpreter, and he was like, “Oh, that's really cool. I also know ASL—my brother's deaf.” I was just like, “Wait, what? That is really, really cool.”
So then I was like, maybe I kind of like this guy, and then at one point, he made reference to the 80’s classic “Better Off Dead” with John Cusack. I got the reference, said the next line, and he jokes that that was the reason that he was interested in me. David and I, we've been married for 11 years. David's brother is deaf, his wife is deaf. I've got deaf in my family.
So, it kind of has all worked out in a really wonderful way. David and I also attended the Mesa ASL branch for a while when we were living in Mesa. And it was an awesome experience, honestly. That's kind of how I began interpreting, that was like the beginnings of my [00:05:00] career.
It was obviously just all volunteer stuff, and I look back on those amazing members of that branch and I'm so grateful for them. They stuck it out with, it's a really unique career, and it's fun to share that with my husband, 'cause it is such a huge part of my identity.
ASHLY
Well, awesome. Let's jump into your story.
JILLIAN
Sure. So it kind of starts January of 2020. This was when we moved to Seattle. I had taken a job opportunity up there that I was really excited about and at this point I had zero hesitation or faith wobbles or anything like that. I was a very faithful member of the church.
Shortly before we left, my mom had said something to me like, “Please don't leave the church.” I was just like, “What in the world? Why would you say that? It's so weird.” And I was just like, “Okay, I won't.” So we moved to Seattle and we were only there for a couple of weeks before Covid happened, and work from home began.
The restrictions in Seattle were [00:06:00] really, really strict. We didn't have in-person church for 15 months, so it was a long time. When this happened, none of us really thought it was gonna go on as long as it did, I think, and in hindsight, I think I would've been like, “Okay, well then we really need to figure out, what does our at-home church really look like?” We did have sacrament as a family, but we didn't really spend a lot of time studying scriptures, and my testimony just wasn't being nourished. I didn't realize that.
A few months later this takes us to about summer of 2020, I was feeling so angry at church leaders, and at just like the world in general. I think that there was just so much anger, and I was feeling angry that there is so much racial discrimination, and really any discrimination.
For the first time, it was in my face. I just felt like that time it was so polarizing. It was like, which side are you on? And I kind of started [00:07:00]seeing people on the other side of me and feeling angry at them.
Like, you're my family and you're supporting X, Y, and Z, and I don't support X, Y, and Z, and that makes me mad at you. I was certainly upset with some of the racial discrimination that has happened in church history, point blank. It's really hard to reconcile sometimes when a church leader can speak on behalf of God and can also be so, so, so flawed and not perfect, and not kind to everybody. How do you reconcile those two? And that was the first time that I felt this internal struggle.
So when I moved to Seattle, I was just exposed to much more progressive thinking and diverse people that I hadn't interacted with before. For example, in one of my wards in Seattle, there were many openly out and closeted LGBTQ+ members of the [00:08:00] ward and a very inclusive bishop. I feel like I was exposed to these really great things, so when family or friends would say things that were unkind and not inclusive of other people, I started to feel so angry.
And it was like, if your identity is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I don't wanna be associated with that. I don't wanna be associated with the way that you're going about the world.
Obviously we were all bored and probably spending way too much time on our phones. I guess I just allowed this anger to build and build and build. And I guess I just wanna say, I don't necessarily think that feeling angry is a problem.
It's just like, what do you do with that? That is where that can be problematic. Obviously we know Jesus got angry. And it's like we are human. We are allowed to have human emotions and anger is one of them. I definitely don't think that we're supposed to be happy and like toxically positive at [00:09:00]all times. So I think it's okay that I was feeling some frustration and some friction, but I definitely allowed it to escalate to a point I didn't wanna be associated with other members of the church. So I really kind of felt like I became almost like an apologist.
Aside from all of that, I was living in a brand new city and it was quarantined. Seattle was so strict, so I hardly spent any time outside or with anybody else. I had a brand new job and it was very demanding, and then my mental health was really struggling. I have OCD. Oftentimes it can manifest itself like depression. And I definitely was experiencing some quarantine depression. I'm so grateful that we were healthy and we were safe, but I was so concerned with the pains and the struggles that other people were going through, and I just felt so helpless and scared and angry and I just didn't know what to do with myself.
I think in August of 2021 we were able to go back to church for the first time. But we were in a new ward, 'cause we had moved, and nobody knew [00:10:00]us.
It was the first time in my life that I realized how much I really do depend on a ward and a community and I didn't have that. We were still on the heels of covid and people were very careful. I just felt so lonely. It was around this time that Elder Holland gave that talk where he mentioned musket fire. And man, that talk really hurt. It hurt a lot. Elder Holland was and still is the leader that I go to for comfort after I've had a really hard day, I just felt, previously, like “He gets it.”
And after that talk I was like, “Oh no. Even a modern day prophet apostle.” I'm having feelings of like, “I don't like what you just said, and I'm not gay. I'm so hurt by what you said.” I was hurt on behalf of every person that was personally affected by what he said, and it just [00:11:00] seemed so out of character.
It was so painful for me that I really needed to talk to my bishop about it. That bishop was so amazing. He just listened. Shortly after, there was a special fifth Sunday School lesson where the bishop invited every member of the ward who was gay, whether they were out or closeted, to just share their experience and share their perspective. There was no agenda other than we are just gonna listen and show unconditional love to these brothers and sisters.
And so there were some people who wrote anonymous letters and had the bishop just read it on their behalf. And some spoke. It was amazing. It was such a cool Sunday school lesson. It was amazing to just listen to them and love them.
And I was really grateful for that moment of, “Okay, there is compassion, and there is inclusivity and there is love.” And that kind of kept me going. But again, like, because I was so bothered by what Elder Holland had said, I kind of [00:12:00] applied that to every living apostle and prophet. I think the next general conference, I don't think I even listened to it. I could hear it and just be like, “Ugh, nope. I don't wanna listen to that right now.” I think I started to depend much more on other people for guidance. Like other people on social media who were like half-in members of the church or who were just like really nuanced members of the church. I wanted to find my people. I wanted people to understand how I felt, really. Because I grew up in the church, and up until about that point, I really, really loved it. I love the gospel and have fully recognized many moments in my life where I could feel the Spirit was communicating with me and I could feel I was being guided, and it was weird to no longer have that feeling in me anymore. It was like, I knew the shape of my testimony, but I didn't know what it looked like anymore.
I also was really interested in outwardly looking like I was not a member of the church. Because I guess I [00:13:00] just didn't want anyone to assume that I was not kind, and that I wouldn't love someone just for who they were. I wanted to identify more with people who were not of our faith. And so I got really fixated on piercings and tattoos. And I don't necessarily think that those are like evil things. I don't. Why I was interested in that was because I wanted to look different and because it felt rebellious a little bit, which is maybe silly.
It was about this time I was like, what is even the purpose of the Word of Wisdom? There are some things that I can get behind, but you're gonna tell me that I can't drink coffee? I was living in Seattle, which is like the coffee mecca, right? Like there's so much coffee everywhere. I'm just like, there's nothing wrong with this. This is silly. And I was just like, this is really gonna keep me out of the temple? That's bonkers to me. That makes no sense. And especially because I looked back on some of the history of the church, how the Word of Wisdom came to be.
It wasn't enforced until a certain point, and it just kind of felt so arbitrary. I was just like, honestly, I'm tired of feeling like an outsider. I wanna [00:14:00] go to a coffee shop on a Saturday morning and have a latte and look cute with my nose piercing and fit in with other people and not just feel like an alien. It was one of the first times that I was a minority, and it was hard.
So I just kind of decided like, “Well, I guess I drink coffee now. I guess that's that.” It's not like I was like, “I'm leaving the church, goodbye.” It wasn't like that at all. I was still going to church. I never doubted Jesus once, never, I never doubted how much He loved me or how much God loved me. I never even doubted the Plan of Salvation, or the Plan of Happiness, I prefer to call it (and I'll get into that). I never even doubted the Book of Mormon at this point, or the Restoration. I just felt this need to pull away. By the end of 2022 I had briefly stopped interpreting full-time and was doing a different job. I wasn't really loving that. I kind of felt like I was at a crossroads in my career.
My husband also felt like he was ready to move on to the next thing he was interested in— moving to the East Coast. so [00:15:00] we were like, “All right, let's give it a try.” And so I interviewed for a job and I got it. He got his job and we sold like 85% of our possessions and we moved to New York City.
We moved to the Upper West Side of Manhattan, and I really hoped that a change of scenery and a new ward would reignite some motivation in me. I was so excited to live in the Upper West Side. I had wanted to live in Manhattan for a long time.
I really felt like we were guided. I mean, we definitely prayed that this would happen and it worked out. We got there though, and oh my gosh, Ashly, our apartment was the nastiest. We moved across the country with a few suitcases and that's it. And we showed up at our apartment, couldn't wait. And the super opens the door and we're just like, “Oh no.” The windows were open, and the filth from the city had spread out all over the walls [00:16:00] and there were dead bugs everywhere, and it just smells like dead animals. We were just like, “Did they not know we were coming? Why does it look like this? It didn't look like this when we FaceTimed with the broker online. Like, what in the world?” We documented all of the nastiness and we couldn't even stay there.
It was so bad. I just remember sitting on the floor and sobbing openly in front of my kids.
I just felt like, what have we done? We went to the hotel, I sobbed in the shower. We just left a great apartment in Seattle—our apartment overlooked the Space Needle. It was beautiful. It was clean. So the super said that they were gonna have someone come in and clean overnight. We came back to the apartment later the next day and it had been cleaned. And it was like, “That was a rough start. We're gonna be okay though.” And so we start moving things in and starting to feel excited. I have to explain the layout of that apartment. So it was on the ground floor and it had a [00:17:00] basement which seemed like a great deal. It was in an area where there were so many rats. Like so many rats.
At one point I counted from the subway stop that I would get off to come home from there. It was like a one block walk to the apartment, and I would count how many rats that I could see as I was walking home and it would be up to like 10, 11, 12.
‘Cause in New York, the garbage is just out, and the rats just hop in those bags, so I can hear them squeaking and fighting and eating and whatever. .
In the floor between the two floors, I could hear them fighting. And I'm like, “That's probably why it smells like dead animals because there are probably actual dead rats in my walls in addition to the live ones, obviously, and whatever crap they brought in from the city.” And they were loud.
I like took a recording of it. It was just like this, there's no way that this is my life right now.
So anyways, that was really, really rough to live in an apartment where every five seconds I'm like, [00:18:00] “Are they gonna crunch through the walls, and come out and run all over?”
I have my two little kiddos and it's just like, “This is no place for us to live. What are we gonna do? Truly, what are we gonna do?” And I was working with building management to try and get on top of it.
We're trying to make headway with the pest company. They're coming in and they're like, “Yeah, you have a big problem.” And we're like, “Yes, we know. Can you do something about it?” And basically they couldn't do a whole lot.
There was one Saturday morning, I was laying in bed. I was sick, probably because of the conditions of the apartment, and I hear my son out in the kitchen say, “Oh, oh, there's a problem, there's a problem.”
And then I hear my husband start freaking out. He comes running in, he's like, “Jill …”
I don't even remember what he said, but when I saw his face, I was like, oh my gosh, something is wrong. And I go out and the apartment, the whole ceiling, gaping hole, water gushing in.
ASHLY
My gosh.
JILLIAN
Yeah. And it was like the nastiest colored [00:19:00] water. Pipes burst on the fourth floor, went through the third second before it got down to us. All of the rats that were in the building, like all of the gunk and the junk. And it just went down, into our unit.
So I'm sobbing, I'm recording. I'm sick, and then I make a phone call to one person in the ward that I knew who's the Elders Quorum president.
And I was, I was just like, “There's a flood. I don't know what to do.” And next thing I know, strangers honestly from our ward just show up and they start helping. And yeah, all of these ward members just come and were helping me think straight, like, “We'll take your kids. We're gonna take them on an adventure so you can pick up the things that you need, and get outta here or whatever you need to do.”
These people showed up for my family and I didn't even know them, and it was just beyond humbling. So long story short, with all of that, that was a blessing, truly, because the flood gave us [00:20:00] enough leverage to break our lease and get out of that apartment.
And I'm so grateful that we did. We couldn't stay in that apartment that night. We were broke because we had spent all of our money moving.
And we were just like, “We can't go back to that apartment. What do we do?” And someone in the ward had texted me and said, “We're out of town. You're welcome to stay at our apartment for a week while you can get on your feet.” Honestly, ordinarily I would've been like, “No, that's crazy. We'll figure it out.” But we literally didn't know what else to do. So we were like, “Okay.”
And so we went and stayed at this angel family's apartment for a week. I was out running around Manhattan and Queens searching for somewhere to live, and the clock was ticking, 'cause I knew they were coming back. I would search for an apartment and I would cry and pray, like, “Please, this next one, let it be the one.”
Nope, not the one. And that's just kind of how it was. And, I just hit a breaking point after seeing the 15th apartment or something, and I sat on a [00:21:00]bench on Central Park West, and I just like openly sobbed into my hands. And there were so many pedestrians that were walking by and so many stopped and they were like, really concerned.
Didn't know what to do. They're like, “I am so sorry.” And I'm like, “It's too hard to explain. I'm sad. Just keep going.” There was one woman that stopped and actually really wanted to know what was going on. And I just explained, “We just moved here a few weeks ago and our apartment didn't work out. We have nowhere to go.” She was like, “Hold on, lemme get you something.” I'm like, “Please don't give me money. I can't do that.” And she pulls out a card and it was a scripture. I don't even remember exactly what she said, but she was just like, “I am going to pray for you.” She gave me a hug, and I just cried into this stranger's shoulder. And she prayed for me right there on the spot.
It was just a moment of like, “Okay, Heavenly Father sees me. He knows this is hard. He knows what's going on. I don't know how, but it's gonna work out.” Long story short, [00:22:00] we ended up going across the Hudson and found a great place to live.
We went to our previous ward one more time after we moved. And it happened to be Fast and Testimony meeting.
I got up there and I sobbed because I wanted to thank the ward for showing up in the way that they did, and caring for us and loving us, and they didn't even know us. I was so grateful for that. I just felt so much unconditional love. And then I also bore my testimony on paying tithing, because at that time I had still been paying tithing, not wanting to, but I was. I remember saying in my testimony something along the lines of “Heavenly Father blesses all of us, whether we pay tithing or not, but I do feel there were extra blessings that I was able to receive because I was still paying tithing.” When all of these financial woes were going on and we had renter’s insurance, which is apparently not a common thing. And because of the renter's insurance, we were able to be reimbursed for our damaged items.
And like I said, we had a [00:23:00] place to stay for a week. And we were able to get into a place with the help of my parents and just like all of these finances that we couldn't have handled on our own. I just felt like it all worked out. I remember feeling really like, “Okay, I need to change my attitude about tithing. I really do, because clearly I feel like this has been a blessing in my life.” So that was like a period of softening. I was definitely not keeping the Word of Wisdom at this time. And I had just decided that I was okay with that.
I knew I wasn't worthy to go to the temple. I just kind of thought like, “I'll figure it out at some point, but right now, I'm not really in a hurry.” So anyways, we moved to Jersey and continued to go to church, and I continued to kind of feel hollow. I would go to Sacrament meeting because I believed in the sacrament, but I just was like, “I don't have it in me to do Relief Society or Sunday school.”
After we had moved to Jersey, it was all still really hard. I almost was laid off. And so, a threat of joblessness. More [00:24:00] financial woes and potentially not being able to pay the bills.
And after a lot of prayer, that worked out, and I'm, you know, obviously so grateful for that. I do have to say that, at this time, I was experiencing feelings like, “I'm really not sure if I can keep doing this living thing.” It's not like I wanted to hurt myself—I didn't want to hurt myself, but I just felt like everything was too much. “The world is too much, and I can't take it. I can't do all of it.” I was physically really sick at the time. I have some heart issues and my nervous system really suffered after everything that we had been through, and I just couldn't even get out of bed.
I look back on myself at that time, and I was sick. My body was sick, my mind was sick, and my spirit was sick. I went on a work trip around that time, you know, as a freelance interpreter. I show up and work, and I don't really know exactly what I'm going to experience.
This trip was in DC. I went and I worked and it was really hard for lots of reasons, [00:25:00] and one of the people who I was working with had invited me over for dinner that evening, which I really appreciated.
It had been a hard day, and for someone to offer some kindness to me, it meant a lot to me. And this person had mentioned that they really enjoyed wine and were like wine connoisseurs and whatever. And so I knew when I was invited over that I was gonna be offered a drink.
And I was just like, I don't have the energy to turn it down. I really don't. And so I knew most likely that I was going to drink at this dinner. I had never really drunk before. Sure enough, the door opens and I'm greeted with something, and they're just like, “I made this for you.” It was so sweet that I was just like, “All right, here we go.” And I ended up getting drunk that night.
I didn't enjoy it. I really didn't. I just needed to kind of numb myself from everything that I was feeling, and that's just actually not who I am. I am like a feeler to my core. I'm a very sensitive person. In a way, OCD has really [00:26:00] blessed me. I feel things like really intensely, or maybe that's just my personality, or a combination of the two, whatever.
But I'm very, very sensitive, and I have high highs and I have low lows. I think that we're supposed to experience the variety of feelings and not just buffer against the pains and the struggles. Anyways, I just recognized like, this isn't me. What am I doing? I wasn't mad at myself, I really wasn't. I had gotten back to my hotel room and I FaceTimed my husband, and I was drunk. I was just kind of laughing at myself and I told him what happened and he was just like. “Okay, cool, I guess,” and I felt really grateful that he wasn't mad or anything.
But I identified, this isn't me. I don't wanna do that again. And so anyways, this leads us to 2024. For the first half of the year or so, I'm still going to church, but my heart wasn't in it at all.
I hadn't cracked open the scriptures in a [00:27:00] long time. Very, very long time. Prayed, never. Like in my heart, sure, but did I actually kneel down and pray, and show humility? And no, I was just very focused on my own life and my career and surviving, honestly. But I really wanted to feel excited about church again.
I started researching other churches in my neighborhood that were not of our faith because I kind of just felt like, maybe that's where I'll find like, I don't know, life again. And then it was approaching summer that I got really tired of, again, feeling like an outsider.
I wanna wear things that I can't wear, so I'm gonna wear the things that I wanna wear. I remember even going on a different work trip and packed shorts and tank tops and things that I couldn't have worn with my garments. I was just like, “Yeah, I'm not bringing garments.”
This is great. And it felt really weird, and it didn't feel like me. I think I was just getting more and more and more and more [00:28:00] casual. I definitely wanna clarify that at no point was I doing anything evil or bad or wrong. I was just lazy and selfish and tired, and distracted, I think.
So, summer of 2024, my family started going down to the Jersey Shore most Saturdays. And it was so much fun. There was one Saturday, it was just like any of the others. We're driving, and the conversation kind of took us to the Book of Mormon, and my husband had basically said something about it not being true, and I thought he was joking. I was like, “Huh.” Because like I said, even though I had totally distanced myself from church, it was like church culture that I was like, “I don't wanna do this anymore.”
It was never the doctrine that I had an issue with. When he said that it wasn't true, and I realized he wasn't joking, I was like, “Oh, hold on a minute.” I thought I was the one that was kind of like out here doing my own thing.
That conversation [00:29:00] revealed that his beliefs had changed a lot as well. Much more quietly, I think, than mine. And it shocked me to my core. When he expressed to me how he was feeling and why he was feeling this way or that way, it broke my heart because I'm out here flailing, but like, I'll figure it out eventually. And then when he shared what he shared with me, I was like, “Oh my gosh. Maybe I have been misled. Maybe it is wrong.” I think subconsciously I thought that my husband knew more than me, because he was a man and a priesthood holder, and I thought, “If he says this isn't true, he has gotta be right. There's no way I'm right about this and he's wrong. There's just no way.” And it's frustrating that those were my feelings subconsciously, because I'm a very independent woman. So I cried the rest of the day. I cried at the beach. I sobbed and sobbed. I [00:30:00] was afraid that he was right, that the church was wrong.
I was afraid that maybe I did really still believe more than I realized, and that he didn't. And now we were gonna be a mixed faith family, and how was I gonna handle that? And could I handle that? You know, it was just like, do I side with David? Do I side with my beliefs? I actually don't know what my beliefs are anymore. I didn't realize how much I was leaning on him.
I felt like I could get drunk on a work trip and drink coffee, because he was still the foundation, and I could kind of be crazy. I was so determined to figure it out at this point, it's funny to think that my husband's faith crisis is really what triggered my comeback. it wasn't really a crisis for him, but like to me, it was like, “Wait a minute.” I'm really grateful that he was honest with me about what he believed and shared that with me, that we were [00:31:00] able to talk about it.
I think that is so important amongst married couples. It is okay to see things differently, you just need to talk. The next two weeks I was determined to get some kind of answer from God. I studied and I prayed and I screamed at God, and I sobbed in the shower. When you realize you don't know what you believe anymore and that potentially everything that you have believed and you've built your life on and you've built your eternity, when that's suddenly gone, you are like, “I don't know who I am.” I just felt like I was in just absolute misery. I didn't know what was up. I didn't know what was down. I knew that I was a good person. I knew I had values, I knew that he had values and was a good person, but I needed structure. I needed direction.
And I didn't know what that was now. I was wrestling with thoughts of, “Do [00:32:00] I want to disagree with David? Do I wanna believe different things than him? What do I want?” I spent the next two weeks just studying and absolutely determined to figure it out.
I read the Book of Mormon. I read other documents. I tried to fill my life with as much light and genuine, desire to learn what was true. And I think that that's what real intent is—when the scriptures talk about praying with real intent. I was so devastated that my husband didn't believe what we believed anymore, which is so ironic because I was out here doing the most, and I was just so devastated about that.
During this two-week period, I realized that I had never actually received a witness of the Book of Mormon. I always believed that it was true; it felt good to me, and I just didn't have any reason to doubt it. And I felt the same way about Joseph Smith and the Restoration.
You know, obviously there were things that [00:33:00] have happened in church history, and with Joseph Smith that I didn't fully understand but I had never actually thought like, he's a con man and he made all of this up, and I realized, I need an answer.
When the scriptures talk about praying with real intent, I was at the point truly where I was like, “I will go anywhere you tell me to go.” This is what my prayers were to God. Like “I don't care if it's a totally different religion, if it's something over there, if I have been misled, please bring me back home, or help me figure this out.”
I was ready to accept whatever that was. I think that's an important part of getting an answer is being willing to accept whatever answer you get. And I had gotten to that point. For those two weeks, it was study, study, study, prayer. I hadn't been getting answers and that was really frustrating.
It was like, don't you want me to know? Why aren't you talking to me? [00:34:00] It just made me try harder and work harder. I would go to work and I would pray in my heart all day long. And then I would come home and, you know, read my scriptures, and listen to music that allowed me to feel the Spirit.
I was so determined to get an answer that in my prayer I was like, I am not getting up until I get an answer. I will not get off my knees until I get an answer. And so I was praying and I just said like, “Holy Father, is the Book of Mormon true? Is it just like a book of stories that someone made up? Is Joseph Smith actually the person that you called to restore Christ's ancient New Testament church? Is he actually the person that you called, or was he a con man? I think I have based my life on the Book of Mormon being true and Joseph Smith actually being a prophet that restored Christ’s church. Is this right?
I realized as it was happening that I was getting [00:35:00] an answer. I really like to try to explain what it feels like to get an answer from the Spirit, because we all pretty much say the same thing: that we get a warm feeling. But it's a fun challenge to try and actually explain what it feels like.
For me it was almost like I knew someone was communicating with me that was outside of me. I could feel a power come over my body that felt like peace. Just absolute peace, and healing, and it was like all of the spitting and the freaking out. And it was just like, it just, it just stopped.
It just stopped. And I felt like, you know, when it snows outside and it's almost like the ambient sound kind of gets like soft. Like that's what it felt like in my room. It was almost like the veil parted, or allowed my bedroom to be on the other side for just a couple moments, and the air was soft.
And I looked around and I was like, this is happening. This is [00:36:00] that answer to that prayer. And as I was able to recognize that it was happening, I also recognized that God knew that I knew what was happening. And oh my gosh, I'm just so grateful that that happened, because I was really confused and really scared. I just felt like it was merciful to finally get an answer after two weeks of the most intense, existential fear that I had ever felt. I mean, it was probably even heightened because of my OCD.
So the fact that I, someone with OCD, was able to identify, “This isn't just an OCD thought,” or “This isn't me making this up. This is real.” I thanked Heavenly Father and I stood up, I got into bed, and I went to sleep .
I mustered the courage to tell my husband about it a couple days later. I basically just told him that whole experience. I was scared to tell him this because I didn't want him to think that I was trying to manipulate him into [00:37:00] believing what I believed, 'cause I don't want that.
I realized how amazing agency is at this point, that I get to believe this. I had this experience. I don't have any proof that it happened, there's no science to back it up. But I had this experience that I will carry with me forever, and no one can take that away from me.
I was just okay with telling him what it was, and if he disagreed with it, it was okay, because I knew that it was real. I love my husband so much, and I'm like, “Wherever you are, in your own faith journey, it's a shade of gray that I have not experienced before, but if you're in that shade of gray, I wanna love you there.” And he loved me through all of my craziness and didn't judge me one time. I just felt this really overwhelming sense of gratitude for my husband, and learning what unconditional love [00:38:00] is like, and allowing someone to be themself is such a gift.
I mean, he continued to disagree with the things that I believed. I'm not gonna say it was instantly easy. It was confusing. It was like, okay, so now what happens? You know? But he and I both decided together that we wanted to go back to the temple. And so I made the necessary changes in my life and I repented, and we both got our temple recommends back. I have honored the Word of Wisdom ever since, and I am so grateful for my covenants. I am so grateful for the strength that they give me. I still don't understand why we don't drink coffee. It's weird to me. It doesn't make any sense. But if that's the price to pay, if that's what I have to give up in order to make covenants with Heavenly Father and learn more about Jesus in the temple and feel that close to heaven on [00:39:00] earth, then fine. I'm happy to do that. It doesn't make sense to me and that's fine.
But I know how I felt before when I didn't feel worthy to go to the temple and how I feel now, and I want now. I want how I feel now. So it's not a sacrifice. I sent a text message to my sister-in-law around this time that this was happening. And I just wanna read the message to you if that's okay.
I said, “I just barely, like two weeks ago, barely got my temple recommend renewed after a long period of being unworthy to go. I honestly don't feel like I went backwards during that time though. Now that I have chosen to be worthy to worship in the temple, I feel like my recommend is an actual gift, which I didn't feel before. It feels so good to choose to leave behind behaviors and tendencies that were preventing me from being armed with the Spirit instead of doing the right things on autopilot.”
And I think this is exactly what Heavenly Father intended by giving us [00:40:00] agency.
And then I said, “I believe God hears me, answers me and loves me more than I can comprehend, and I want to do anything I can to help anyone else believe that too.” And so in sharing my story or whatever, I didn't feel like it was really a comeback story, because I never left the church. I didn't leave fully, but my heart left. But when I looked back on this experience and when I read that message and I remember feeling so, so grateful, I wanted to share my experience with anybody that would listen because I truly felt like I was born again.
And now I feel like I understand how to communicate with heaven, and it's just about putting the effort and prioritizing the scriptures. I truly tried to do anything that I could to fill my life with as much light as possible.
And that included, worship music and watching The Chosen, I just tried to fill my life with as much Jesus as possible. It probably seems to people on [00:41:00] the outside that we worship Joseph Smith; we do not. I worship my Savior. Jesus Christ is my Savior and I worship him. Joseph Smith was just the guy that was called to restore.
ASHLY
Yes. He is a human and that is all God has ever had to work with is these imperfect humans that are just out here just trying to do their best.
JILLIAN
Exactly. I just tried to fill my life with as much Jesus as possible. I was watching The Chosen and listening to worship music and reading the scriptures, and there were so many talks and BYU speeches that really spoke to me. I deleted TikTok off of my phone, and I really just started prioritizing all of that time that I just spend doing something that is feeding me instead. And that has made such a difference in my life. Not even just my spiritual life, but just in general. I just feel like less of a zombie. I feel like I have more purpose and more meaning, [00:42:00] really the small and simple things, I know so many people on the podcast have talked about this.
It's the Primary answers, because it is scripture and it is prayer. The very first General Conference that happened after all of this went down, it was October of 2024, and I was so desperate to go to the temple because I felt worthy again. I had been praying for temple, and I wrote down my wishlist before General Conference began. Like, here are some things that I hope that they touch on, and I had written “temple in New Jersey?” And when President Nelson announced Summit New Jersey, I threw my pen and I was just like, “Oh my gosh, he said it.”
People of New Jersey can thank me for getting a temple because I prayed for it. So I don't know when it will be here, but there's just so many moments where I felt like when you ask, you do receive.
ASHLY
Oh my gosh, that's so beautiful.
JILLIAN
Attended the temple for the first time in like five years or so, and in October of 2024. I'm just grateful. [00:43:00] It felt so good to be back. I felt like I was home. Maybe that sounds cheesy or cliche, but it really, it really did feel like home.
Ashly
It does not at all. That's exactly how it felt for me. It's like coming home.
JILLIAN
Yeah. Like I said, there are still lots of things that I don't understand, especially about the plan of salvation, for example. But like I said, I like to call it the Plan of Happiness because I do believe that everybody is gonna be happy.
We're all going to get what we choose and we're all gonna be comfortable and happy with what we choose and people are going to use their agency how they want to. And how amazing is that? And I get to use my agency how I want to, and I'm so, so, so grateful. I believe in a God who gives us every single chance until we say we don't want any more chances.
And then he honors that. It's amazing. Like God wants us to choose to be like him. He doesn't wanna force us to become like him.
ASHLY
Right.
JILLIAN
Also, like, I think that when I stopped [00:44:00] moving forward and I kind of drifted there for a while, I don't feel like that time that I was like away or whatever, I don't look back on that and think like, “Oh, I really messed up.”
I don't feel that way because there was so much beautiful learning that happened because of this experience. I don't think everybody needs to have a faith crisis or needs to fall away, but I think that they are so consecrated for our good. I'm so grateful, I had this motivation inside of me to seek an answer about the Book of Mormon and learn if it was true for myself and then to actually get an answer about it that wasn't forced on me.
ASHLY
Was what you were supposed to do.
JILLIAN
Right.
ASHLY
because it was the culturally appropriate thing to do, like you did it because you were seeking an answer for yourself.
JILLIAN
Yeah. And I was ready to accept it and run with it. Around the time that I was going through all of this, I was watching the [00:45:00] show “Intervention.” And you know, in the end when it says, “So-and-so relapsed after treatment,” or they were in treatment for this many days and then relapsed or whatever.
When I used to watch this show, I remember thinking like, “Oh, dang it, you blew it.” How judgmental of me, my gosh. Like “You blew it. You worked so hard to get clean and then you fell off again.” And when I was watching it through the lens of coming back to my testimony, it's almost like recovery for these people on the show.
It's like they were practicing. They learned how it feels to recover, and then they'll get to learn again, and then they'll get to learn again. And that's exactly how I feel in my testimony. I don't feel like my testimony is mine forever and ever and ever.
I am still going to be tested and I am still gonna have an opportunity to practice what I have learned. It's not time wasted. If you relapse or if you fall away again, or if you falter [00:46:00] again, it's not like you blew it. It's still learning. It's all pushing us forward, just maybe in a way that we didn't expect.
ASHLY
And He works all things. God works all things to the good of those who—
JILLIAN
Yeah, exactly.
ASHLY
things, all those trials, all those, you know, two steps back. It's all for our good.
JILLIAN
Yeah, for sure. I also have thought about Adam and Eve a lot too. It was essential for them to leave the garden in order to progress. It was essential. They couldn't have done it without it. And that's kind of how I feel in my own path and my own journey and experience. If I had stayed where I was, I was never gonna progress.
I even mean falling away there for a little while, like I left the garden. I had opportunities to kind of fumble and fall, and figure things out, and it pushed me forward. I'm so, so, [00:47:00] so grateful for that. And it's been really interesting to think about my life through that lens of leaving the garden and thinking about how grateful I am that, you know, Eve chose to do that.
ASHLY
I've thought about this a lot myself because it used to be something that I just didn't get. Why would God tell Adam and Eve not to partake of the fruit if it was essential? In the last little bit when I've interviewed so many people on the podcast, it has become so crystal clear to me that He knows that we are going to make mistakes and the whole point
JILLIAN
Yeah.
ASHLY
is to make us better and to help us grow. Jared Halverson talks about the creation-fall-atonement is the story arc of …he talks about how the fall is part of our progression. So you brought that up and it hit home for me.
JILLIAN
Totally. For the intervention analogy, relapsing is part of recovery.
ASHLY
Yeah.I went [00:48:00] through treatment 15 times.
I think that first time I went to treatment, it was 15 months in an adolescent lockdown facility. And even though I relapsed after that, I spent that time in there and I look back on it today and I think that was so instrumental in me understanding that I could do it, that I could do hard things.
JILLIAN
Yes.
ASHLY
I relapsed, and I relapsed again and again and again. I taught me that I could do hard things and that
JILLIAN
Yes
ASHLY
there was the possibility that I could maintain sustained sobriety.
JILLIAN
Yes. It's like practice. In terms of a gospel setting, it's like practice living like Jesus. We try it on for a while and then we mess up, and then we try it on again, and then we mess up, and we just, we don't stop trying. And I'm so grateful that I get to keep trying and have every chance that I get and that we all do.
I also wanna say, like we were talking about [00:49:00] how church leaders are flawed people. I still don't like what Elder Holland shared in that talk. I don't like it. And that's okay, but that doesn't negate the truth. The Book of Mormon and the truth of the restoration of the Church.
I don't like what he said, but again, that doesn't mean that I have to abandon everything else that he ever has said, or every other thing that I do believe. I just think that that is one way that Satan and the adversary really get into our heads, just like this one little thing that irks us, and then we're just like, or you know what?
“It's all or nothing. I'm outta here.” I mean Jesus talks in his Sermon on the Mount, being so concerned with your brother over here doing what they're doing. Like, why don't you focus on yourself?
All of this learning has been good for me in that way too. Like, stop worrying about what your family is posting about politics over here and stop freaking out about what your spouse believes. And stop worrying [00:50:00] about what this church leader said or external things. I can't control any of them. I can control seeking truth, feeling that confirmation and acting on it, and that's it. That's all I get to do. I don't get to control what Elder Holland says in his next talk, and I also have to remind myself that if there's a political leader or something that I feel is being harmful or is being problematic, unkind [indistinct], I have to remind myself I'm sinning in different ways. Like, Jesus does not love me more than he loves that person.
And so I need to figure it out. I need to figure out how to see people through that perspective of a Christ who loved all of us so much enough to actually suffer for every single thing and die and give up his whole life, and knowing that even after all of that, so many of us still won't accept the Atonement, and He was happy to do it [00:51:00] anyways.
I've found space in my heart to give church leaders a lot more grace.
We're all down here trying to figure out what it is like to be Christlike and to eventually become like God. I'm just gonna worry about myself and I'm going to believe that my Savior loves me and he's my friend and he's rooting for me. And Heavenly Father listens to me when I pray. And when I come to Him with questions, He answers me.
Maybe not right away, but He knows me so well that He knows when to answer. He knows when is the right time, and He lets us make our own choices, and make mistakes and then come back and it's amazing. I'm really appreciative of the opportunity to share, so thank you.
ASHLY
I can't thank you enough for coming on here. And man, I literally don't think I can wait three weeks to post this episode. It's just, I’m just thinking about how many people this [00:52:00] episode is gonna help. I mean, it helps me. You're so beautiful in
JILLIAN Oh, thank you.
ASHLY
spirit, and your testimony is so incredible, and just thank you.
JILLIAN
My gosh. Thank you for sharing that. My patriarchal blessing specifically cites Matthew 5:16. Like, any light that I have is not mine. It's Christ. And I'm just trying to be a vessel that can mirror image and reflect. My blessing says, “Let your light so shine that your fellowman can see your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” And I was really nervous to share my experiences on this podcast.
It will land with some people, it won't land with some people. It's scary, it's super vulnerable. But I think that there's a lot of healing and growth that happens in that vulnerability. I'm really grateful that you reached out I don't wanna turn down an opportunity to remind people all loved we all are, and how important our lives are, even if that means I have [00:53:00] to, illustrate some of my goofiness and the ways that I've erred, and, I guess I'm really grateful that I get to do that. So thank you for what you're doing. Honestly, your podcast really did play a part in my coming back as well. I found it during that time and I was just like, “Okay, there are people like me.”
So, yeah. Thank you.